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[RWC2023] England vs Samoa (07/10/2023)

But they've been doing it the whole time under Borthwick and we've seen no real improvement in their decision making. They still kick aimlessly hoping to the opponents will make a mistake.
Its All about territory and pressure...making the opposition make mistakes.

Again...all the top sides do it..we just aren't efficient/ doing it well yet.
I would hope to see a bit of improvement in these areas....and hopefully a little bit of attack starting to show its face tonight though
 
Its All about territory and pressure...making the opposition make mistakes.

Again...all the top sides do it..we just aren't efficient/ doing it well yet.
I would hope to see a bit of improvement in these areas....and hopefully a little bit of attack starting to show its face tonight though
I do get where you are coming from but again a good chunk of the players are those who successfully implemented it in 2019, I know they were somehow destroyed post WC and somehow got consistently worse but it's still not new or foreign to them.
 
Its All about territory and pressure...making the opposition make mistakes.

Again...all the top sides do it..we just aren't efficient/ doing it well yet.
I would hope to see a bit of improvement in these areas....and hopefully a little bit of attack starting to show its face tonight though
Sorry, going to call bullshit here. Top teams don't kick it when attacking past the 10 metre line up in the air into the 22. We do and it's ridiculous. Yes, sometimes the kicks are on, but England kick more than they run the ball, yet it gives us nothing. Almost all our tries have come from running the ball into the 22, yet I guarantee England will still kick it into the 22 pointlessly in the hope Samoa will make a mistake.
 
Farrell is not, and never will be, an international 12. He lacks pace, power, and anything resembling a step. Add to that the fact that he still thinks he's playing league when tackling, is putting him in a position to card himself yet again really wise? I know all the other big teams kick, and actually quite a lot. It's just part of the modern game. But they also have real pace in the backs, lads who can actually chase a ball a decent distance and get there to compete. Who are englands pace men in this side today? May, who doesn't seem to be as rapid as he once was, Marchant (who is going to miss out on the chance to make some magic in midfield), and that's it. Manu, for all his power is ponderous, and Steward for all his height isn't much better. He's certainly not shown anything in counter attack that's going to worry an opposition, and for an international fullback that's not great.

I'm sad not to see Arundel even get a look in here, and that Smith will probably only get a short cameo off the bench, which will continue through the rest of the tournament. Forget the fact that there is real buzz every time he touches the ball.

On the up side Earl is starting again, and to my mind he's been England best player, and is starting to look world class. Glad Curry is back and seeing them work together will be great. Billy V being benched is also good, but frankly he should be dropped altogether. Just don't think he brings anything.

England have worked their way back into this tournament, and have steadily improved. We will need some big step ups if we are to make it to a final, but with Fiji in the semis we have a chance, but against either France or SA we are going to need something much more special. But it's KO rugger, and anything can happen!
 
Sorry, going to call bullshit here. Top teams don't kick it when attacking past the 10 metre line up in the air into the 22. We do and it's ridiculous. Yes, sometimes the kicks are on, but England kick more than they run the ball, yet it gives us nothing. Almost all our tries have come from running the ball into the 22, yet I guarantee England will still kick it into the 22 pointlessly in the hope Samoa will make a mistake.
Might have to call BS on your BS. Top teams are more and more using the cross field kick to the winger when defences become narrow, and that's almost always in and around the 22. And not always when they have a pen. The issue is that England aren't narrowing defences enough to have the option, and then don't execute the cross field kick with enough accuracy when they do. We also see dinks over the top, grabbers etc. the issue is, England kick as part of a formula, 2 sets kick repeat. The kick type is always the same. There's no mystery, nothing to keep opposition on their toes, so it's easy to defend. The first time we saw England use the kick option to good effect was the drop goals in the Argentina game. Against teams like SA, who have incredibly strong defence, we will need kick options like that in the 22 if, after a number of phases we aren't making progress, otherwise they will just hunker down, and each time you go into contact you give them the chance to turn the ball over, which becomes ever more certain as time goes on.
 
I do get where you are coming from but again a good chunk of the players are those who successfully implemented it in 2019, I know they were somehow destroyed post WC and somehow got consistently worse but it's still not new or foreign to them.
Your correct and this is definitely something they need to address.
 
Sorry, going to call bullshit here. Top teams don't kick it when attacking past the 10 metre line up in the air into the 22. We do and it's ridiculous. Yes, sometimes the kicks are on, but England kick more than they run the ball, yet it gives us nothing. Almost all our tries have come from running the ball into the 22, yet I guarantee England will still kick it into the 22 pointlessly in the hope Samoa will make a mistake.
Teams are kicking from all over now...I hate the term kick pass but it's now a very regular means of scoring...bypassing the whole backline. Quins use it all the time with Marcus Smith

As mentioned above though the difference is we don't have a functioning attack yet. Its all been focus on the basics and defensive aspects...making us "hard to beat".

I'll be amazed if we see a fully functioning attack before the 6n...they'll continue to focus on defence, set piece and pressure...which is generally where you start building a side
 
Going forward id like to see Curry given the captaincy, Farrell is no longer a must have then and it might take some pressure off him, see who suits the 10 shirt the best and go from there.
 
Going forward id like to see Curry given the captaincy, Farrell is no longer a must have then and it might take some pressure off him, see who suits the 10 shirt the best and go from there.
Completely agree Personally I would have Farrell out the squad altogether now. But that's just me. And I know FA ;)

Focus on Ford and Smith (and a young developer like Atkinson, Fin Smith etc efc) and then look at the best young 12s coming through also and pick them.

Time to move away form the"old guard" and bring through the exciting new talent.


Tight head still concerns me...as Cole will retire and I don't rare Stuart at all....which leaves us a little bare...unless Hayes comes through
 
Completely agree Personally I would have Farrell out the squad altogether now. But that's just me. And I know FA ;)

Focus on Ford and Smith (and a young developer like Atkinson, Fin Smith etc efc) and then look at the best young 12s coming through also and pick them.

Time to move away form the"old guard" and bring through the exciting new talent.


Tight head still concerns me...as Cole will retire and I don't rare Stuart at all....which leaves us a little bare...unless Hayes comes through
Yeah it's pretty interesting we have debth problems but 12 isn't necessarily one of them (going forward), I'm on the fence with Faz looked great for Sarries but excessively aimlessly kicks and misses better options, I had him a lot higher up the pecking order than Ford but so far Fords been very good, then there's the tackle issue which isn't unlikely in a key game where 15 players on the pitch are essential.
 
England have done better than I expected pre tournament so I'm just getting behind them and what will be will be.

Post WC I'm looking forward to seeing a rebuild and some young players getting a chance. I think the rebuild needs to start straight away to build a team capable of challenging for the 6N and then the next RWC.

One problem as I see it is the 10-12 problem could rattle on due to the age profile of players if nothing else. Ford has another WC in him he'll be 34, Farrell you'd say not at 36 but look at Sexton......
 
Completely agree Personally I would have Farrell out the squad altogether now. But that's just me. And I know FA ;)

Focus on Ford and Smith (and a young developer like Atkinson, Fin Smith etc efc) and then look at the best young 12s coming through also and pick them.

Time to move away form the"old guard" and bring through the exciting new talent.


Tight head still concerns me...as Cole will retire and I don't rare Stuart at all....which leaves us a little bare...unless Hayes comes through
I think Stuart is alright. Not great, but often better than he's given credit for and a fair bit better than Heyes IMO.

I get why Cole has been picked today. Samoa seem to be pretty one dimensional and he's probably the right horse for this particular course.

Moving forward, we really need some decent tightheads to emerge as the cupboard is pretty bare. I still have hopes for Harper and Schickerling will add something when he's eligible. Hopefully Gloucester can develop Fasogbon who looks like a beast in the making.
 
England have done better than I expected pre tournament so I'm just getting behind them and what will be will be.

Post WC I'm looking forward to seeing a rebuild and some young players getting a chance. I think the rebuild needs to start straight away to build a team capable of challenging for the 6N and then the next RWC.

One problem as I see it is the 10-12 problem could rattle on due to the age profile of players if nothing else. Ford has another WC in him he'll be 34, Farrell you'd say not at 36 but look at Sexton......
This is my worry … Farrell will 100% want do a Sexton.

Ireland haven't had any decent alternatives. We do. I hope he selectors see sense post RWC but I don't believe Farrell will be cut adrift as he should be.
 
England have done better than I expected pre tournament so I'm just getting behind them and what will be will be.
They have? I've always said the draw meant they could do anything between going out the group stages and getting to a semi-final. And it would probably mean they had the same tournament. I haven't seen anything other thana spirited performance against Argentina that suggests otherwise.
 
They have? I've always said the draw meant they could do anything between going out the group stages and getting to a semi-final. And it would probably mean they had the same tournament. I haven't seen anything other thana spirited performance against Argentina that suggests otherwise.
Yup in the context England won one game against a Wales B team in the warm ups, 6N performance and new coach-Argentina, Japan, and Samoa all looked loose able. Not suggesting they've played particularly well.
 
Teams are kicking from all over now...I hate the term kick pass but it's now a very regular means of scoring...bypassing the whole backline. Quins use it all the time with Marcus Smith

As mentioned above though the difference is we don't have a functioning attack yet. Its all been focus on the basics and defensive aspects...making us "hard to beat".

I'll be amazed if we see a fully functioning attack before the 6n...they'll continue to focus on defence, set piece and pressure...which is generally where you start building a side
Might have to call BS on your BS. Top teams are more and more using the cross field kick to the winger when defences become narrow, and that's almost always in and around the 22. And not always when they have a pen. The issue is that England aren't narrowing defences enough to have the option, and then don't execute the cross field kick with enough accuracy when they do. We also see dinks over the top, grabbers etc. the issue is, England kick as part of a formula, 2 sets kick repeat. The kick type is always the same. There's no mystery, nothing to keep opposition on their toes, so it's easy to defend. The first time we saw England use the kick option to good effect was the drop goals in the Argentina game. Against teams like SA, who have incredibly strong defence, we will need kick options like that in the 22 if, after a number of phases we aren't making progress, otherwise they will just hunker down, and each time you go into contact you give them the chance to turn the ball over, which becomes ever more certain as time goes on.
Again, you miss the point. I'm not saying top teams don't kick. But they kick with purpose. Yes it might not always work,but they try when it's the right option or when they have advantage etc...

England don't. England kick when the defence has cover. They send wishful spiral bombs into the 22. They kick when they have overlaps and they've been doing it for 4 years. The issue isn't kicking, it's that England are so bad at it and aren't improving.
 
This is my worry … Farrell will 100% want do a Sexton.

Ireland haven't had any decent alternatives. We do. I hope he selectors see sense post RWC but I don't believe Farrell will be cut adrift as he should be.
Farrell is still the best/most consistent 10 season in season out in the premiership so why shouldn't he be selected for England(it's not his fault the coaches select him at 12).I'd be more concerned that the up and coming 10's or 12's are not forcing him out of consideration by taking there club level to the same heights as Farrell or ford.The onus should be on the likes of Marcus smith/Dan Kelly etc to make it impossible for the selectors not to pick them not move Farrell out the way to accommodate them.
 
Farrell is still the best/most consistent 10 season in season out in the premiership so why shouldn't he be selected for England(it's not his fault the coaches select him at 12).I'd be more concerned that the up and coming 10's or 12's are not forcing him out of consideration by taking there club level to the same heights as Farrell or ford.The onus should be on the likes of Marcus smith/Dan Kelly etc to make it impossible for the selectors not to pick them not move Farrell out the way to accommodate them.
But he almost never brings that club form to England and is still selected regardless. I genuinely can't recall the last time Farrell had an unequivocally excellent game for England. Certainly not to the point that his inevitable selection is warranted.

No one else including Ford has ever really been given that level of backing at 10 whilst Farrell has been on the scene. At least not without him standing outside them.
 

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