[RWC2023 QF2] Ireland vs New Zealand (14/10/2023)

[Umaga's Witness]

Yep agree its a shame that WCs have taken on so much prestige as to devalue achievements in between. The 96 and 05 series wins you mention are my non-WC pinnacles as well. Three test wins on the trot in SA, and a Lions win followed by a Grand Slam which featured two completely different starting XVs being rolled out in consecutive weekends.... to think that display of depth has been reduced to just a footnote because the team shat the bed two years later is a real shame.

That said, knockout pressure and the fact unlike a regular season, both hemispheres align their seasons to the event, allowing all teams to aim to peak at the event, make WCs what they are.

They certainly require a different mindset though and I think that's something Ireland perhaps hasn't yet grasped. There's lots to to analyse about how each team played, but for me, a key one was Sexton turning down kickable penalties. I get they backed themselves to convert the field position into tries, and that belief was entirely justified based on how they've converted those opportunities in the last couple seasons.

But 07 in particular taught the ABs a very painful lesson - pride cometh before the fall, never turn down points. Jordie taking a nudge from 50 out showed how well that lesson has been learnt.

I don't agree that Ireland had the wrong mentality. It's easy to say that in hindsight and they easily could have won this match. Ther mauls are very effective. They scored once off them and we got yellowed and almost scored another time

 

[die_mole]

Spicy. . .

 

[40/20]

I don't agree that Ireland had the wrong mentality. It's easy to say that in hindsight and they easily could have won this match. Ther mauls are very effective. They scored once off them and we got yellowed and almost scored another time

Yea that's fair, but it goes both ways doesn't it. It's also easy in hindsight to say they were justified in turning down those kicks because they nearly got away with it.

I'm not suggesting the kicks turned down cost them the game on their own, there's far too many other variables to draw that conclusion. But I do believe that in knockout games especially, banking points and building pressure puts you in a better position to eventually come out on top compared to rolling the dice.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Yea that's fair, but it goes both ways doesn't it. It's also easy in hindsight to say they were justified in turning down those kicks because they nearly got away with it.

I'm not suggesting the kicks turned down cost them the game on their own, there's far too many other variables to draw that conclusion. But I do believe that in knockout games especially, banking points and building pressure puts you in a better position to eventually come out on top compared to rolling the dice.

I think you are right in general, but im not sure the logic applies when you have a really strong attacking lineout maul.

More generally in high pressure rugby when nerves are high attacking becomes very difficult. players tend to get tunnel vision and risk aversion, aren't able to balance looking where they're going with looking at the ball, looking at what other players are doing, and thinking about what to do next. And tackle accuracy tends to be higher in high pressure games. Those things don't really apply to mauls though.

 

[40/20]

I think you are right in general, but im not sure the logic applies when you have a really strong attacking lineout maul.

More generally in high pressure rugby when nerves are high attacking becomes very difficult. players tend to get tunnel vision and risk aversion, aren't able to balance looking where they're going with looking at the ball, looking at what other players are doing, and thinking about what to do next. And tackle accuracy tends to be higher in high pressure games. Those things don't really apply to mauls though.

Yep good point. Only thing I'd add though is a maul in that situation is first preceded by a lineout and against teams with the will/skill to compete on their own line, there's an increased risk of missing out altogether.

I know we gave up that penalty try, but we also spoiled their lineout 5m out after the first penalty Sexton turned down.

Anyway, it's a moot point in the end. I'm just glad our boys kicked whatever came their way. The 6 points they took early ultimately kept them out of reach.

 

[retired9]

Finally got a chance to post about this, what a contest and NZ just pulled out an astonishingly good performance when they needed to. Much as I have struggled to love Ireland of late I do feel gutted for them not to have progressed further.

For me the first point to make is how good the AB's athleticism and absoloute commitment and trust in each other was. The tidal wave of pressure they could just keep throwing at Ireland again and again was something to witness, and to then back it up with the legendary support play that they are famed for just didn't let the Irish get settled into much of a rhythm.

NZ had a bit of a score to settle and there was just no way they were going to let Ireland have it their own way. They clearly did some very good homework and worked very hard to adapt their game to suit the challenge.

The support of the carrier made the difference IMO, there was no time at all for the Irish tackler to get back up and jackal before they were under the second black shirt (exactly the thing that killed Scotland the week before, we jut couldn't handle it). NZ also made sure that the got their body positions in a way to make a jackal difficult and made sure the ball was placed back very quickly to prevent the holding on penalty being drawn. In all honesty it was a bit of out-Irelanding Ireland at the breakdown.

After all the mega support noises for Barnes from some green circles, it seems a little ironic that he had Porter nailed on what seemed like every scrum. For the amount of times it happened one might have thought a card would eventually come. No complaints with the calls he seemed to be the first ref who was able to adequately referee Irelands breakdown as well IMO.

Anyhow, pleased for NZ to progress. Sexton has been an icon of NH rugby for years and I am sorry for him not to get at least another round further, he definietly was worthy of it and the team as a collective were no question better than a QF exit. Ireland will get better again in time, fully expect them to be at the top end of the table in the 6N even without Jonny.

 

[O’Doyle Rules]

Where do we see this Ireland team moving in the next four years - a decline given the players were losing? more of the same or (dare I say it) an improvement?

I think Faz will do what he did post 2019 - keep the same team where possible to maintain challenges for silverware and blooding 1/2 players a season.

I do worry about our props.

Funny remembering back to 2019 and the inevitable "Irish team for 2027" - many pundits said build the team around Larmour without a mention of Keenan.

 

[BrokenWing]

Yea that's fair

I think you are right in general

Yep good point

Can you two pack it in?

This is not how you behave on The Internet, you're meant to be foaming at the mouth and screaming at each other by now.

Or likening one another to Hitler or one of those mad fellas.

 

[Jakedood]

Where do we see this Ireland team moving in the next four years - a decline given the players were losing? more of the same or (dare I say it) an improvement?

I think Faz will do what he did post 2019 - keep the same team where possible to maintain challenges for silverware and blooding 1/2 players a season.

I do worry about our props.

Funny remembering back to 2019 and the inevitable "Irish team for 2027" - many pundits said build the team around Larmour without a mention of Keenan.

Jimmy O'Brien, and Potentially McCarthy/Baird are very interesting for me. I like McCarthy a lot, and Baird could be the same style as O'Mahony but more pace and less hard nous
Unsure prop wise though, I've seen Tom O'Toole since school days and i just don't know if he's even really close to that top level. This season is huge for him. Sheehan is outstanding, but the props are definitely a worry if you want to win these tournaments

 

[O’Doyle Rules]

Jimmy O'Brien, and Potentially McCarthy/Baird are very interesting for me. I like McCarthy a lot, and Baird could be the same style as O'Mahony but more pace and less hard nous
Unsure prop wise though, I've seen Tom O'Toole since school days and i just don't know if he's even really close to that top level. This season is huge for him. Sheehan is outstanding, but the props are definitely a worry if you want to win these tournaments

Obviously it's better for Irish born / heritage people, but the loss of the project players will be quite hard in the next few years. Aki is a superb servant to Irish rugby and a real point of difference bulk wise.

Hopefully it's a case of some props appearing quite suddenly - difficult positions to identify talent super earlier.

I don't know it just feels like some seriously iconic names are about to leave and our players coming in seem a bit "off the conveyor belt"? Guess they need to grow into their roles.

 

[Everyday EggChaser]

Andrew Porter will be 31 by the next world cup, so he should be there. Maybe moving back to tighthead if furlong would have moved on. Furlong would only be 34 which isnt that old for a prop.

Irish u20s looked great so I'm not buying into an Ireland decline at all.

Most WC winning head coaches win on their second attempt (woodward 1999-2003, white 2003-2007, henry 2007-2011) Hansen just carried on from henry and Rassie was just the right man for SA.

So id say if you keep Farrell and stay calm, 2027 has Irish fingerprints on it

 

[OldSchoolRugga]

Really good game. Felt Ireland did not have many ideas on how to play NZ. Their attack was quite predictable, and 1 dimensional. NZ played really well. They certainly have incredible mental strength.

 

[Rosso Verde e Nero]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Three things are certain in life:

1. Death

2. Taxes

3. Ireland exiting at the QF

To think Irish fans thought they were actually going to win. It's at the point where it would be an upset if Ireland ever progressed

What a pathetic post.

 

[Rosso Verde e Nero]

It's ok, Ireland. Daddy England will be there to teach you and Wales how to win QFs. Pay attention later; you can learn from your father.

You are obviously just fishing for bites on your nonsense. Go and try in the playground and leave this place for the adults.

 

[Rosso Verde e Nero]

I Agree it's tougher. It's really the small sample size of games that means I don't value it much as a demonstration of who is best. Plus as an all blacks fan we have traditionally had the mentality that every test matters. I feel that the world cup is given too much importance internationally and that takes away from the value of tests. Test series are the pinnacle for me. Beating South Africa in a series in South Africa in 1996 ranks for me as the greatest all blacks achievement since I've been watching the game, second is the lions series in 2005.

Nice of you to agree that Ireland are actually better than the ABs.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Nice of you to agree that Ireland are actually better than the ABs.

sorry....i love the fact in subsequent posts you've just told @Dean Cooperfield-West to stop fishing and leave this place to the adults....and then tried to hook @Umaga's Witness .....thats gold

 

[Zac_ETNZ]

Nice of you to agree that Ireland are actually better than the ABs.

Ireland were better than the All Blacks 5 times in 118 years, suggesting Ireland need 23.6 years on average to evolve to beat them again - which implies a deliberate policy of selective breeding (perhaps with current All Blacks??) to produce 23-year-old Irish players to beat them in 2045

 

[Kiwiwomble]

...he's literally used 3 emojis

 

[ncurd]

Shout out to the best performing English man in the tournament Wayne Barnes. Huge profile game 4 point in the score. And nobody is really talking about the referee.

 

[Rosso Verde e Nero]

sorry....i love the fact in subsequent posts you've just told @Dean Cooperfield-West to stop fishing and leave this place to the adults....and then tried to hook @Umaga's Witness .....thats gold

To be fair, DWC is clearly a minnow in a big pond, but UW did leave himself wide open to that one, but there were smilies there to show I was just taking the ****...