England vs New Zealand - 19/11/22

[Kiwiwomble]

I was reading comments on a stuff article (should generally not do that, bad for the health) and someone mentioned Clarke had 4 tries in 14 tests. That's not the strike rate of an all black left wing.

its not wrong, hes had a bit of injury to deal with and fozzie was loyal to bridge and swapping RI between midfield and wing longer than he probably should have been and as i say...i just dont feel we're feeding our left wings like we use too, looking back at old videos, alot of the highlight reels for players like lomu, rokocoko are on the back of backline moves that put these guys in space...and i think we're at the point where its effecting his confidence and decision making, he looks for contact rather than trying to get outside his man

 

[Umaga's Witness]

its not wrong, hes had a bit of injury to deal with and fozzie was loyal to bridge and swapping RI between midfield and wing longer than he probably should have been and as i say...i just dont feel we're feeding our left wings like we use too, looking back at old videos, alot of the highlight reels for players like lomu, rokocoko are on the back of backline moves that put these guys in space...and i think we're at the point where its effecting his confidence and decision making, he looks for contact rather than trying to get outside his man

I think most of the time when he is getting the ball he doesn't have opportunity to do much, so taking contact is usually the right decision. In the past our midfielders and fullbacks have done a better job at creating space. And our forwards have created more front foot ball.

He is being used as a mechanism for getting front foot ball rather than someone on the end of the line the phase after we get front foot ball.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

seems like such a waste to use clarke to generate front foot ball when we're not using it well

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Times believing Jones might be about to pull a rabbit out of a hat but clueless about what it might be - some speculation that it could be Slade at FB and Steward at 14.

Also confirmed that Simmonds, Curry and Vunipola have trained together for at least some of this week. Personally I don't like that combination - I'd much rather see Willis at 6. Guess Simmonds is being seen as our version of Savea - maybe he'll pack down at 8 on attacking ball or something. But if it was the master plan to play him there what was the Itoje stuff all about?

 

[Scotty]

Times believing Jones might be about to pull a rabbit out of a hat but clueless about what it might be - some speculation that it could be Slade at FB and Steward at 14.

Also confirmed that Simmonds, Curry and Vunipola have trained together for at least some of this week. Personally I don't like that combination - I'd much rather see Willis at 6. Guess Simmonds is being seen as our version of Savea - maybe he'll pack down at 8 on attacking ball or something. But if it was the master plan to play him there what was the Itoje stuff all about?

Because EJ does not give a **** about the AI's and he got to see Itoje at 6 incase he has to in the WC.... prob same reason he'd start Steward on the wing at Slade at FB. He doesnt care win or lose so why not try these things now so theyve been tested for the WC...Thats the view im getting of EJ's decision making atm.

 

[Which Tyler]

Eddie sees experimentation to mean playing his world cup squad in different positions so that they can cover injuries during a RWC; not rotating in the 3rd/4th choice player in case the chosen one can't make the RWC.


ETA: Or... what Scotty said

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Contingency is important. But there comes a point where cohesion and a winning habit become far more important. And I reckon that was about a year ago. Have a settled side and a clear game plan and it's much easier to introduce the contingencies gradually. Feels like there's a bit of infinite monkey theorum about this.

All speculation though. Let's see what the team announcement actually brings…..

 

[Which Tyler]

Oh, I'm not saying I agree with Eddie (I kinda do, but nowhere near to his extent).

But then, I also don't prioritise the RWC to the exclusion of all else; and place a greater emphasis on club combinations, and like-for-like replacement options (and the odd plan-changing option) - oh, and gameplans B through E; not just a, A, A and A

 

[Saintjay]

Times believing Jones might be about to pull a rabbit out of a hat but clueless about what it might be - some speculation that it could be Slade at FB and Steward at 14.

Also confirmed that Simmonds, Curry and Vunipola have trained together for at least some of this week. Personally I don't like that combination - I'd much rather see Willis at 6. Guess Simmonds is being seen as our version of Savea - maybe he'll pack down at 8 on attacking ball or something. But if it was the master plan to play him there what was the Itoje stuff all about?

It is odd if he goes with that. I was reading EJ is against Willis\Curry for some reason and not his preferred option. Last time we beat the AB's we only had two real line out options. Eddie's thinking at the moment is three options is the way forward. I'll guess we will see in an hour or so.

 

[HamJan]

Contingency is important. But there comes a point where cohesion and a winning habit become far more important. And I reckon that was about a year ago. Have a settled side and a clear game plan and it's much easier to introduce the contingencies gradually. Feels like there's a bit of infinite monkey theorum about this.

All speculation though. Let's see what the team announcement actually brings…..

In 2019 Warren Gatland placed a lot of psychological importance in Wales entering the RWC warm up games ranked number one in the world, and on the back of something like 16 successive wins. The first warm up game at Twickenham saw an England second / third side beat their full strength side, and the return fixture in Cardiff saw Wales scrape by with a win. I don't think Wales really recovered from the mental knock that they took at Twickenham and reverted to zero risk rugby again for the RWC tournament.

Eddie's a far better short term planner than longer term and, rightly or wrongly, he's been trying different ideas since 2019, some successful and some really bad. But in the same way that we were shocking in 2018 and built steadily through 2019, I think he'll be looking to the 6N to start playing a more settled side with a clearer game plan.

 

[Which Tyler]

But then, I also don't prioritise the RWC to the exclusion of all else; and place a greater emphasis on club combinations, and like-for-like replacement options (and the odd plan-changing option) - oh, and gameplans B through E; not just a, A, A and A

Just thinking on this "If I were England's head coach" I'd probably plan for (and clear with my RFU paymasters)...

2024 6N - I'm not selecting any of the RWC23 first XV for this tournament, they're mentally shot and need a break, just play club level rugby this Spring, we already know what you bring to the team, and can bring you back in if necessary, this is our chance to spread the net wide and look at who else might step up to international rugby. Equally, you guys who were ley to the RWC23 plan - if you want a year or two overseas, you won't get a better chance to expand your horizons. Basing the squad the RWC23 backups, and new blood.
2024 ST & 2024 AIs - I'm not selecting anyone who went to RWC22 - they're physically and mentally shot, so they get a summer off, and a full pre-season. Basing this squad on the new blood introduced in the Spring, and a wider net of new blood from around the clubs.

2025 6N & 2025 ST - Re-introduce RWC23 backup players.
2025 AIs - Re-introduce the RWC23 starters.

2026 6N - Start nailing down the makeup of the RWC27 squad, and laying the groundwork for gameplans that would suit that squad.
2026 ST - the push through to the RWC starts here - time to start putting down markers and making opponents fear us.

Throughout, I'd be happy trying out players slightly out of position... in the last 20-25 minutes of matches, to see how they go if versatility is required (and asking them to try to get some gametime in that 2nd position at club level).

Means that everyone who's been flogged into the ground for the previous 4 years, gets at least 1 summer of R&R and club pre-season. 2 of them if they were the core squad, getting really flogged.
Means that a lot of players would be getting international experience in the first 2 years, but without really dumping them in at the deep end.
Means 2 full years with the expected squad for the next RWC, but with some room for integrations.
Of course, there's always room for a bolter, and for opinions to change.

Oh, and I'd try to keep a coaching crew through the whole cycle (I can see a point in exposing the players to lots of different styles and options, but that only really works if you empower the players to make their own decisions on the pitch - and comes at the price of cohesion).

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Starters
15. Freddie Steward
14. Jack Nowell (VC)
13. Manu Tuilagi
12. Owen Farrell (C)
11. Jonny May
10. Marcus Smith
9. Jack van Poortvliet
1. Ellis Genge (VC)
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie
3. Kyle Sinckler
4. Maro Itoje
5. Jonny Hill
6. Sam Simmonds
7. Tom Curry
8. Billy Vunipola

Finishers
16. Jamie George
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Will Stuart
19. David Ribbans
20. Jack Willis
21. Ben Youngs
22. Guy Porter
23. Henry Slade

RFU

www.englandrugby.com

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Interesting to start Simmonds at 6. Maro back to lock.

 

[TommiG88]

2 13s on the bench… Porter out and Freeman in would have been the sensible option

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Obviously there are things to dislike (no Freeman being the big one) but honestly by EJ standards I'm pretty happy with that.

Coles dropping out completely seems harsh though, I'd have had him over Ribbans.

 

[HamJan]

Starters
15. Freddie Steward
14. Jack Nowell (VC)
13. Manu Tuilagi
12. Owen Farrell (C)
11. Jonny May
10. Marcus Smith
9. Jack van Poortvliet
1. Ellis Genge (VC)
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie
3. Kyle Sinckler
4. Maro Itoje
5. Jonny Hill
6. Sam Simmonds
7. Tom Curry
8. Billy Vunipola

Finishers
16. Jamie George
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Will Stuart
19. David Ribbans
20. Jack Willis
21. Ben Youngs
22. Guy Porter
23. Henry Slade

RFU

www.englandrugby.com

Me likey

 

[Saintjay]

Not massively upset over the team. The backs aren't massively exciting but I guess Slade can cover 15 with Steward moving to the wing. Willis on the bench seems a good call to come on with Simmonds going to 8.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

After the rumours during the week of Slade training at 15 and both him and Porter being on the bench I fully expect us to finish this game with 14. Steward 15. Slade.

My hope (/pipe dream) is that this means Slade may come on to fill Farrell's second playmaker role and we could see Tuilagi-Porter in the midfield (with either of Smith or Farrell at 10). Far from perfect but hey, it's 2 centres at centre and a 10 at 10. Combine that with 2 locks at lock and 3 back rowers in the back row and other than Slade and Steward we'd actually have players playing in their positions.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Obviously there are things to dislike (no Freeman being the big one) but honestly by EJ standards I'm pretty happy with that.

Yep, same

I also really want to see a Willis/Curry backrow start a game, but I'm just happy with a backrower in the backrow and a lock at lock

Lowering expectations is the best way to feel good about an EJ teamsheet

 

[Saintjay]