June International Test: Australia vs. England [3rd Test] (25/06/2016)

[spartan32]

England need to win this to cement their place as top NH team and to show the SH that we can consistently beat them. If we loose the Aussies will say that the first two games we won on the back of their poor performance, rather then our superior one. That they were not fully prepared after time off etc. At the very least we need to run the game very close, but honestly I don't think anything other then a win will do at this point. We also need to keep building this run of unbeaten games. With the next Autumn series full of games we can win, and then a six nations that we should rightly dominate we could be putting a string of wins together to rival the all blacks, and that's where we should be aiming if we ever want to topple them, and because why not? It's about time we started converting potential into something tangible.

As for a team this weekend, I agree we most that few changes will be made. Yard for Nowell, Clifford for Hask, or maybe Itoje to back row and Launch to second row.

I'd be interested to see if Te'o gets a look in from the bench, but I suspect Daly will get the spot alongside Care with another 6/2 split.

But frankly i don't care who plays. Let's just win this game, leave the Aussies in tatters, and then kick off from there.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I can see it happening - he was talking up the importance of players who can be really, really physical in the last test.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I wouldn't mind Robshaw going to 7 this game if it meant Itoje-Launch second rows, Lawes 6

 

[Every Time Ref]

But his only start was at 8, and he played the full 80.

Still seems like Jones sees him as a potential 7 though, so maybe counts in his favour on Sat.

I'm now completely confused about my own personal preference ... like the look of Teimana but assume he's only trained at 6 with England, I'm not a big fan of moving players out of familiar positions without good reason, especially youngsters with only a couple of caps.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I wouldn't mind Robshaw going to 7 this game if it meant Itoje-Launch second rows, Lawes 6

Or Kruis-Launch + Itoje 6?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Or Kruis-Launch + Itoje 6?

I don't like Itoje moving to 6 for a couple of reasons:
1. I don't want to move him out of position, him and Kruis have a really solid partnership, so when Lawes and Launch (Whichever you want to put out if its a 3 locks situation) can both play 6, I'd rather keep Itoje lock, 1 of them 6.
2. If there is a 3 lock, 1 at 6 combo, it means Clifford, Harrison or Robshaw at 7. That would be a huge lack of physicality compared to what we've had so far in our flankers, and I don't think Itoje makes up for that physicality. Lawes/Launch would do.

 

[Every Time Ref]

The keeping him in position argument is a good one, nonetheless we have greater strength at lock than back row, and given we have an exceptional young player who can play either I say it makes sense to give him a chance at 6.

Not sure I agree about physicality either, Itoje's a beast.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

The keeping him in position argument is a good one, nonetheless we have greater strength at lock than back row, and given we have an exceptional young player who can play either I say it makes sense to give him a chance at 6.

Not sure I agree about physicality either, Itoje's a beast.

He is, but I'd say his beastliness is at the break down, and a bit in his carrying. He's a very reliable defender, and makes a lot of tackles, but he doesn't make big hits, which is the kind of physicality I'd want from a 6. I'd say Lawes and Launch are both better in that aspect.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

He is, but I'd say his beastliness is at the break down, and a bit in his carrying. He's a very reliable defender, and makes a lot of tackles, but he doesn't make big hits, which is the kind of physicality I'd want from a 6. I'd say Lawes and Launch are both better in that aspect.

Lawes has shown in the past that he's not an international level 6 imo, and while Launchbury might have been I think he's put on quite a lot of bulk since he last had the necessary mobility.

Itoje has both the power to play lock and the mobility to play six, as he's done for Saracens this season and in the past.

Teimana Harrison played 7 for the Wales game didn't he? Think that's the position Jones sees him as.

I'd go for:

6) Robshaw
7) Harrison
8) Vunipola

20) Clifford

 

[Peat]

Itoje at 6 > any of the other locks if you ask me. Think I've been over the whys before.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Lawes has shown in the past that he's not an international level 6 imo, and while Launchbury might have been I think he's put on quite a lot of bulk since he last had the necessary mobility.

Itoje has both the power to play lock and the mobility to play six, as he's done for Saracens this season and in the past.

Teimana Harrison played 7 for the Wales game didn't he? Think that's the position Jones sees him as.

I'd go for:

6) Robshaw
7) Harrison
8) Vunipola

20) Clifford

He played 6. My understanding of that game's back row, was that it was going to be 6) Robshaw 7) Haskell 8) Clifford with Harrison on the bench, but Robshaw pulled out to go to his brother's wedding, so they just slotted Teimana into 6. So it's unclear as to whether Jones sees him as a 6 or 7, because he hasn't been a planned starter for England yet (If that makes sense). I'd have thought he's a 7, but Kvesic's inclusion in the Saxons means Jones is clearly looking at him, so he may want Harrison as a 6 to make way for him. I don't think he's got the size for 6. I also don't think he's ready to start yet. Even against a poor-performing Wales side he looked out of his depth, and that was at 6. Putting him straight in at 7 vs Australia wouldn't be wise IMO.

And when has Lawes ever proved he's not an international 6? He's never played there for England has he? I think his best performances for Saints this season have been in a 6 shirt, so I'd like to se him there.

 

[Peat]

And when has Lawes ever proved he's not an international 6? He's never played there for England has he? I think his best performances for Saints this season have been in a 6 shirt, so I'd like to se him there.

He has and stood out like a sore thumb. Do not want again. Nothing about his skillset screams international blindside.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

He has and stood out like a sore thumb. Do not want again. Nothing about his skillset screams international blindside.

Oh right, 3 years ago? It's unlikely that Jones will even go for a 3 lock combo, but if he was I'd like to see Lawes at 6. Just my opinion. Maybe it's just that seeing Henderson start at 6 on the weekend has gotten me into the idea of big, physical locks at 6. It won't happen but I'd like to see Lawes there. It just seems like a good balance to me, 6. Lawes 7. Clifford 8. Vunipola.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Lawes has looked poor whenever he's played at blindside, to be fair.
Launch stuck out when he filled in there for England before, too.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Lawes has looked poor whenever he's played at blindside, to be fair.
Launch stuck out when he filled in there for England before, too.

What he said.

 

[Peat]

Oh right, 3 years ago? It's unlikely that Jones will even go for a 3 lock combo, but if he was I'd like to see Lawes at 6. Just my opinion. Maybe it's just that seeing Henderson start at 6 on the weekend has gotten me into the idea of big, physical locks at 6. It won't happen but I'd like to see Lawes there. It just seems like a good balance to me, 6. Lawes 7. Clifford 8. Vunipola.

Yeah, 2013 6N.

The thing you have to remember about Henderson is he is a genuine bona fide blindside flanker. He finished the season playing there for Ulster, he started his international career for Ireland there. I've had some long and bitter arguments over whether he's better suited to blindside than he is to lock. There's no doubt about his skill set for the position or his athleticism - I've seen him keep pretty much level with Keith Earls in a sprint for the ball.

The other guys? In fairness, I think all of our current senior locks have racked up 20 or so appearances at least for their club at blindside. I've not seen Lawes do it but the others looked pretty swish there. Its not like we're talking about sending a front row to play there. Of course, being able to do that at international level, having not done it for a couple of years, in most cases after piling on another 5 or 6 kilos... its a different kettle of fish. I don't put too much faith in the difference between blindside and lock, but there is some, and international level exaggerates it. I'm not sure they're Hendersons, able to do both positions with ease. I think Itoje and Launchbury might be, but we've yet to find out.

I used to be of the same position as you - that getting a third lock on the field, just quick and skilled enough to play blindside, would be really useful. Since then, I've flip-flopped - now I want to get as many auxiliary flankers into the tight five as possible. Obviously we've got locks to spare at the moment so I'm not too bothered either way.

Lawes has looked poor whenever he's played at blindside, to be fair.
Launch stuck out when he filled in there for England before, too.

Launch has had 10 minutes at the end of a match and did nothing wrong. Think that might have been the Ireland game where he chased down Dave Kearney. Unless I'm forgetting a match, nothing has been proven either way about Launch at blindside for England.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Pretty sure Launch went 6 for 20-30 mins vs the All Blacks and did nothing wrong. He is much bigger now though.

As for Henderson, his future for Ireland is definitely at lock. They have POM, SOB, CJ and others at 6. I'd love to see him at 6 for the Lions though, with Itoje-Wyn Jones locks.

 

[Peat]

Pretty sure Launch went 6 for 20-30 mins vs the All Blacks and did nothing wrong. He is much bigger now though.

As for Henderson, his future for Ireland is definitely at lock. They have POM, SOB, CJ and others at 6. I'd love to see him at 6 for the Lions though, with Itoje-Wyn Jones locks.

I don't remember it but may be wrong. Which game?

The whole lock vs blindside thing with Hendy (to tangent here) has been sharpened a lot by Ulster being okay for locks but desperate in the back row and Ireland being okay in the back row but desperate for locks. Its possible he'll split positions fairly often between province and country. Its also possible, with O'Brien increasingly injury prone and Heaslip getting on, that Ireland's back row stocks drop away just as a new generation of locks come to crop. So who knows what the future holds? To a certain extent, its simply about getting him on the pitch and working out what the strongest options elsewhere are.

Which is sort of how I feel about Itoje (huzzah! Back on topic). He plays. There's serious grounds for thinking he could be very good at blindside flanker. At which point.. Robshaw or Launchbury? If our back rows were as strong as our locks, I don't think the idea would get much traction at all.

 

[Jaguares]

Wallabies team to face England in third Test, Saturday June 25.

1. James Slipper - Reds (76 Tests)
2. Stephen Moore (c) - Brumbies (104 Tests)
3. Sekope Kepu - Waratahs (65 Tests)
4. Will Skelton - Waratahs (14 Tests)
5. Rob Simmons - Reds (61 Tests)
6. Scott Fardy - Brumbies (32 Tests)
7. Michael Hooper (vc) - Waratahs (53 Tests)
8. Sean McMahon - Rebels (8 Tests)
9. Nick Phipps - Waratahs (41 Tests)
10. Bernard Foley - Waratahs (29 Tests)
11. Rob Horne (vc) - Waratahs (31 Tests)
12. Matt Toomua - Brumbies (31 Tests)
13. Tevita Kuridrani - Brumbies (33 Tests)
14. Dane Haylett-Petty - Western Force (2 Tests)
15. Israel Folau - Waratahs (40 Tests)

Replacements (One to be omitted)

Tatafu Polota-Nau - Waratahs (63 Tests)
Scott Sio - Brumbies (17 Tests)
Greg Holmes - Reds (25 Tests)
Adam Coleman (Uncapped)
Dean Mumm - Waratahs (46 Tests)
Wycliff Palu - Waratahs (57 Tests)
Nick Frisby - Reds (2 Tests)
Christian Leali'ifano - Brumbies (17 Tests)
Taqele Naiyaravoro - Waratahs (1 Test)

 

[austingtir]

I cant believe Nick Phipps has managed 41 tests!!?? WTF? The guy would struggle to make back up half for Japan.

Also perplexed at Scott Sio being second rate compared to last year. Last year he practically destroyed every opposition scrum he came up against.