[RWC2019][Semi-Final 1] England vs. New Zealand (26/10/2019)

[donmcdazzle]

I'm not expert on NZ but TJ has thrown some right crap this tournament. Smith is a far better passer than him personally. I think it was the Canada game where TJ was just holding back the NZ attack with his atrocious passing.

You may not be an expert but you have a good set of eyes. His passing is very inconsistent. He might get the ruck as quickly, but his passing from there is not flash. Weber is way better in that respect, but they obviously want the alternate style halfback on the bench. Similar to Tawera Kerr-Barlow at the last world cup. Bigger guy who was more physical and a good runner, but couldn't pass like Smith.

 

[Cooper]

No offense to James, but the Aaron Smith vs TJ thing isn't much of a debating point, I often only see the TJ over Aaron cries from Hurricanes supporters. Aaron is the best 9 in the world and has been since 2012.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

... thats who we're comparing him too and we're still starting him in a world cup semi final?.....not exactly contenders for "All Black Greats" are they

You can only choose from what you've got. J think they want to get the best out of Ardie and, given cane is the one who doesn't play 80, it's about choosing the best time in the game to play savea and cane together. That might not be the start. If we can challenge England's line out they may be less likely to kick for territory, which they've been very good at when ford is playing. Fordell is a threat because we bring barret Into the line and bridge is required to do a huge amount of work in this structure ; if we can take away a kicking option it gives these guys more freedom and a better chance to shut down the English outside channels

I think Taine had the chops to cut it as an AB but i also know im bias and that lots of people dont

I'd like someone young to be given the mantle whilst there are some old hats around to help guide them rather than change it every few years...who?...no idea off the top of my head

I loved all these guys, but yeah not all blacks greats.

but tut tut guys, get back on topic

#lukejacobsoncaptain2020abs

 

[mania]

No offense to James, but the Aaron Smith vs TJ thing isn't much of a debating point, I often only see the TJ over Aaron cries from Hurricanes supporters. Aaron is the best 9 in the world and has been since 2012.

agree. my nieces, hard core canes fans, said TJ was the better than aSmith. i corrected them and advised that aaron was the best since graemeBachop
though tbh weber has surpassed aaron and TJ this season. aarons still got the pass but webers got the all round game.

 

[OneBlackEye]

Yeah it's a shame for Webber, he had an insane season for the Chiefs but it makes sense to go with the experience of TJ and Smith. I just hope he doesn't become one of those players that has great form but is only a fringe AB then gets injured or loses his mojo next Super season then never gets back to the top of his game.

 

[james5000]

Even though I probably do agree Smith has the better pass, I just think he needs to run with the ball a bit more.

When everyone knows you are just going to pass it gets a little predictable.
Its not like he isn't a threat with ball in hand, he its actually pretty electric has a lot of pace off the mark.

I just think Smith has dropped off a little bit, in the last 12-18 months in the passing game, game management.
He doesn't run with the ball as much as he used to.

TJ isn't too far behind in the skills department, he probably has a quicker more powerful pass, but maybe less accurate. Maybe he is a little slower around the paddock.
I don't think its night and day though, they are pretty close.

TJ has those extra attributes that make him a little better,

Smith from last week is the best half back in the world by a country mile, that was the best I have seen him play in years.
He hasn't played like that in the last 12-18 months IMO.

He looked like a threat everytime he touched the ball.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Even though I probably do agree Smith has the better pass, I just think he needs to run with the ball a bit more.

When everyone knows you are just going to pass it gets a little predictable.
Its not like he isn't a threat with ball in hand, he its actually pretty electric has a lot of pace off the mark.

I just think Smith has dropped off a little bit, in the last 12-18 months in the passing game, game management.
He doesn't run with the ball as much as he used to.

TJ isn't too far behind in the skills department, he probably has a quicker more powerful pass, but maybe less accurate. Maybe he is a little slower around the paddock.
I don't think its night and day though, they are pretty close.

TJ has those extra attributes that make him a little better,

Smith from last week is the best half back in the world by a country mile, that was the best I have seen him play in years.
He hasn't played like that in the last 12-18 months IMO.

He looked like a threat everytime he touched the ball.

...does he need to though?...if he did people would just start bagging him for being selfish and he was stopping some of the best attacking players in the game

 

[Kapa O Pango]

Set-piece is going to be really important this match.

 

[spartan32]

So I've actually starting paying some attention to what NZ are looking to do, and I apologise if this has already been mentioned.

by throwing in a third lock, they now have 4 line out jumping options to England's 2 1/2 (Curry). This of course slightly limits their speed around the pitch and possibly effects what happens at the breakdown, but let's be honest NZ are pretty handy at every position round the field so it's not much of a sacrifice. What it does do is nullify an element of England's kicking game strategy. If, as some have suggested, we look to play territory with kicks and ensure that it lands in row G, preventing the dreaded NZ quick counter, we then have to complete against twice the number of jumpers at the line and this will almost certainly lead to NZ getting the ball back nearly every time, allowing them possession and another chance to attack.

Then there is the issue of NZ attacking kicks and line outs. With an extra lock you have added power in the driving maul, and again more chance of winning the line out in the first place.

of course EJ could have played Laws at 6 and had Kruis on the pitch as well to match NZ, but that would have taken away the great attacking/defensive work Undercurry can muster. As much as Laws is a big hitter, he gets through no where near as much work as Curry or Underhill, and with all the running threats NZ have I think Jones is right to put them out.

so what do England do? NZ have set themselves up perfectly to absorb the England game plan as it stands, without having to sacrifice much at all. So either or backline play out of their skins, like men possessed, and punish NZ at every opportunity for not having a proper 6 on the field, while our line out achieves the impossible and wins while seriously outnumbered (very Battle of Britain).

Or

We do the unexpected. Something hither to unseen. A completely new plan that involves running the ball, utilising the playmaker we have all over the field, retaining possession and only kicking when necessary. Take the line out of the equation. No preset driving mauls and set pieces for the extra lock to have impact in. Just one more slow lumbering tree with which to generate mismatches against.

Who knows what EJ has planned but it's going to be mighty interesting. After all, he knew that NZ were going to play 3 locks before he announced his side so could have changed it up. The man clearly has a plan, but what is it, and will it work?

 

[Tayga]

Just spending the week in Chamonix in France. Heading back now to get to Blighty in time for the game ( 1000 km trip)
I think England are going to scrape it by a score - i am actually more relaxed about this game than the Australia game .
But there are two or three prerequisites for success imo
1. The Breakdown - Cunderhill have to slow AB ball down - there is no way any side can contain the ABs if they dominate the breakdown/Rick contact areas and Aaron Smith can play the game at pace.
2. The ABs will look to pressure our line out with Barrett being brought in to a specific job there . Jamie George will need to be throwing pin point darts - I would rather have had Kruis here but Lawes does give an extra option in the loose where this game is going to be primarily won or lost .
3. Our kicking out of hand has to be spot on - there is no way we can kick loosely to the AB back three - yes we have great players but BB is the best rugby player on this planet. Point.
Our tactical game plan revolves around kicking and we need to make sure that the ABs are put under pressure.
Also Farrel will have to nail every penalty we get.

If we can manage all the above then we have a great chance - the ABs looked really good against Ireland but i think it is fair to say that Ireland were as poor as they were against England back in August .
History is against us and the ABs are truly the worlds greatest sports team but I do not get the sense that our boys are overawed or daunted by the prospect of facing the ABs - The lions tour showed that they are not unbeatable and the last face off was a 1 point defeat which in all fairness we should have won .
M'y optimism might be misplaced but I think that our boys will stand up and be counted. As the old Trafalgar battle cry goes , « England expects Everyman to do his duty «
England by a small score say I !!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I haven't seen a hell of a lot of the English hookers tbh, but I always rated Hartley quite highly (not on the level of Coles or Taylor mind you) are they indeed much better than Hartley?

George is better at every aspect of hooker play (ooh err), but Hartley would probably be starting if fit (he's had a consistent run of injuries the last year or so). He's our best captain and we seem to play better with him in the side.

I think Coles is a POS on the pitch but you can't argue with how skilled he is. I'd put him and Marx up at top tier with George a step below as he's had some consistency issues at the international level (he's been pretty consistent lately but it takes time to really prove it). He's definitely got the skillset to be up there with them though.

 

[ncurd]

Yeah our starting front ridiciously mobile, I still get nightmares about that one time George gassed Kyle Eastmond.

It's one of the reasons I'm little baffled by people saying we just kick it to the corners and that won't work...we aren't Aussie wreckless with the ball but we do play good rugby especially with Ford at 10. But they will kick it if the attack has died but they never were really going to hoof it all day long. It was a specific tactic against Aus rather than our standard gameplan to deal with how they like to play ball in hand regardless of where they are on the pitch and it worked 100%

Alot has been said about how poorly Aus played and they did but people forget we played a specific way and selected a side to deal with then. England's tactics were spot on. I'm not saying this is definitely the case but it appears England have grown to an adaptable side who will change the gameplan based on their opposition.

EJ will have known since the draw this would of been the most likely semi-final (as would Hansen) and this really is his do or die moment for legacy in the English setup. One of the defining matches of his coaching career (along with 2003 RWC and Japan V SA).

Why is it still 24 hours away?

 

[MarkyH]

24 hours ffs.

New Zealand are pants. Coming over here and taking over our thread with their unrivalled arrogance.

 

[Cooper]

24 hours ffs.

New Zealand are pants. Coming over here and taking over our thread with their unrivalled arrogance.

Sorry to disturb the banter chaps

The anticipation is killing me, I haven't been this excited for a game since..... well, last weekend!!!

The game has all the hallmarks of a classic, both teams hitting their stride with strong deep squads and two best tacticians around, I'm sure the game will live up to the hype. There's quite a few Irish & UK people out in NZ, so the pub will have a great atmosphere, it was a great night after the matches last weekend and it's on at the perfect time here, last RWC we were having to get up at the crack of dawn, or try to stay awake all night!

 

[JohnKA]

I would really like the all blacks to make the final and ofcourse the boks for a epic All Blacks vs Springboks final but I just have a funny feeling that if there is going to be a upset it will be in this match. Going to be a cracker !! Good luck to both teams !

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

Seen a few things said and written here and elsewhere about NZ picking four jumpers to counter our kicking game. I don't think that's actually the reason. Our kicking game is focused on keeping ball in play and competing with our wingers, meaning lineouts aren't often the result of our kicks. What I think NZ are planning to do is establish a running threat in the wide channels (much like the Aussies) which will lead us to play our wingers flatter and leave Daly (an average positional 15 at the best of times) with acres of space to cover. If they then get Mo'unga and Barrett linking up out of the back with some "wiper" kicks to the corner early on, then England will be under immense pressure, throwing in 5-10m out from our line with two real jumpers vs four.

I also think S.Barrett has been picked for some extra defensive ballast to counter the power game of our forwards and force us to play out of the back earlier in the game, where I expect Ardie and Taylor to be waiting to try and pilfer in the wide channels.

I think it will be a fascinating game with both coaches having some special plays/tactics to pull out of the bag on the day. If both teams play to 100% of their potential then I think England really do have a shot. Unfortunately, that rarely happens in Semi-finals/Finals, so I expect the wise old heads of Whitelock, Read and Smith to make the difference in a tight contest.

 

[Gena_ZA]

The anticipation is killing me, I haven't been this excited for a game since..... well, last weekend!!!

I will wont be able to sleep tonight and these are not even my teams playing!!!
By Sunday i'll be a drunk vegetable again

 

[MarkyH]

Seen a few things said and written here and elsewhere about NZ picking four jumpers to counter our kicking game. I don't think that's actually the reason. Our kicking game is focused on keeping ball in play and competing with our wingers, meaning lineouts aren't often the result of our kicks. .

I was about to touch on this, we kick for territory, or box kick for our wingers to compete. Playing a proper back row relies on us chasing kicks well, and aggressively tacking and competing at the resulting breakdown. We rarely kick to touch unless its a defensive need (and even then not all the time) or we're playing for the corners and full on territory (which we tend to do when leading).

Yes, NZ will have an advantage at the lineout, but less so at the breakdown, and if we're trying to keep ball in play the breakdown becomes more important. The other side of this is if NZ start kicking to touch more, but even they would rather have the ball in play. Seems an odd selection choice, but I am ignoring the fact that S.Barrett is still a quality operator.

And before this gets too many bites, I think NZ are favorites, but I'm looking at where we can find advantages.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Who does this help more?

 

[donmcdazzle]

Who does this help more?

I would've typically said England - but with your more attacking style nowadays I'm not sure it suits one team more than the other. You probably have better kicking with Ford and Farrell so probably still you blokes.