Australia vs England - 3 Tests - June 2016

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

The Aussie scrum isn't bad any more and I think Vunipola will struggle. Haskell is meh and will struggle against Pooper. Feeling ok with the wingers and locks and hopefully Itoje can slot into 6 without any issues. Youngs MUST speed up his delivery. He does a step and a wind up before a pass which adds a good half a second at least to his passes, Australia will shut that down all day.

Youngs passing technique is actually.

Takes a step winds up takes a couple more steps and then pass it behind the receiver.

 

[Which Tyler]

Youngs passing technique is actually.

Takes a step winds up takes a couple more steps and then pass it behind the receiver.

That's harsh, you're forgetting the pass, beautifully timed and weighted to expose the receiver's ribs to a slathering #8; or the pass that skids along the floor resulting in a knock-on.
There's probably also the odd pass that was meant to be a show-and-go, but that he forgot to keep hold of (err... used to be my speciality in my playing days - AKA, happened once and I was NEVER allowed to forget - and rightly so).
Certainly there's the occasional nice lofted pass just ripe for an interception.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

To be fair, Ben Youngs can pass half way across the pitch, if you include all the crabbing as part of the pass.

 

[Raggs]

The aussies are worried about youngs though (at least their podcast guys). He makes the odd nice break, but when you try a play every single time you get the ball, it'll come off here and there.

 

[Muse_Cubed]

To be fair, Ben Youngs can pass half way across the pitch, if you include all the crabbing as part of the pass.

The annoying thing is that even when he's playing like dog**** he can still create game-winners from almost nothing, and then gets all the praise from the media etc., even though the team probably shouldn't have been in such a precarious place in the first place.

Also - new A Level Stats question: if you have a Youngs-Ford-Burrell 9-10-12 axis, what is the probability of them all being on form at the same time?

 

[Raggs]

Ford will struggle to ever be in great form with Youngs at 9, by virtue of the fact he can only rely on getting half decent ball 10% of the time.

 

[johnmac99]

After reading the last few pages, Eddie Jones has no chance of beating Australia because he has too many crap players.

Hartley and Cole are average, Haskell is meh, Vunipola will struggle, Youngs is too slow, no proper 12, Fly Halfs not good enough, Nowell too slow, Brown too old

The only positions that have been praised are the locks, and people want to move one of those to blindside.

FFS

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

So press are suggesting team will be something like this?

1) Vunipola
2) Hartley
3) Cole
4) Launchbury
5) Kruis
6) Itoje
7) Haskell
8) Vunipola
9) Youngs
10) Farrell
11) Nowell
12) T'eo
13) JJ
14) Watson
15) Brown


(With prob a bench of)
16) George
17) Mullan
18) Hill
19) Lawes
20) Clifford
21) Care
22) Ford
23) Daly

With Launch, Kruis, Itoje I don't think there's a need for another lock on the bench. I'd rather see Robshaw or more preferably Harrison in that place over Lawes. Other than that, a shifting of Burrell to 12 and Slade at 22 over Ford, I'd say that's a pretty ideal team with what we have.

 

[Muse_Cubed]

With Launch, Kruis, Itoje I don't think there's a need for another lock on the bench. I'd rather see Robshaw or more preferably Harrison in that place over Lawes. Other than that, a shifting of Burrell to 12 and Slade at 22 over Ford, I'd say that's a pretty ideal team with what we have.

There's pretty much no point in having Robshaw on the bench though. The only thing that he might add is a bit of stability/leadership off the bench if things are getting disorganised, but he'll never be an impact player. His strongest attributes are that he reliably put in a solid 80-minute shift and that he's a consistent performer. I do feel a bit for him, but the writing's been on the wall for a while.

As for Lawes, I'm ok either way. I suppose he offers some flexibility as he played pretty well at 6 recently (his previous stints there were somewhat underwhelming). I'm not opposed to him actually getting some time off though as he does spend half his seasons crocked. I hope Harrison gets a bench spot - his physicality in the latter stages of the game will be pretty handy, so long as he doesn't end up being over-eager, Haskell-style.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

All i want is a team of
1) Brookes (He can play 1)
2) Hill
3) Mullan
4) Ewers
5) Armand
6) Kruis
7) Itoje
8) Genge
9) Eastmond
10) Goode
11) Daly
12) Farrell
13) Brown
14) JJ
15) Slade

Is that too much to ask for?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

All i want is a team of
1) Brookes (He can play 1)
2) Hill
3) Mullan
4) Ewers
5) Armand
6) Kruis
7) Itoje
8) Genge
9) Eastmond
10) Goode
11) Daly
12) Farrell
13) Brown
14) JJ
15) Slade

Is that too much to ask for?

Put Barritt in at 6 and May at 12 and I think that's probably the best team Jones can put out. Although I think that despite his dip in form, if Jones put Tom Wood at fullback it could really spark some good play within him.

 

[Peat]

Laugh it up, but Itoje possibly would be our best 7...

I'd also like to point out that Ford's first very decent 6N was with Youngs, and I suspect his first senior trophy was with him too. Youngs is clearly not the issue here. I've gotta say, Ben Youngs' playing record is astonishing for a player of his reported talent levels, and I'm beginning to think we should explore the possibility that those in the professional game think less of his flaws and more of our strengths than we do.

And, yeah, beating Australia is going to be really difficult and doing so will involve a lot of players having their best international games yet. This is news?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Laugh it up, but Itoje possibly would be our best 7...

I'd also like to point out that Ford's first very decent 6N was with Youngs, and I suspect his first senior trophy was with him too. Youngs is clearly not the issue here. I've gotta say, Ben Youngs' playing record is astonishing for a player of his reported talent levels, and I'm beginning to think we should explore the possibility that those in the professional game think less of his flaws and more of our strengths than we do.

And, yeah, beating Australia is going to be really difficult and doing so will involve a lot of players having their best international games yet. This is news?

Yep and him and Ford are BF's IRL.

 

[spartan32]

I think it's a case of recognising that while decent, we're a way off the best teams in the world. Being good in the Six Nations counts for very little now France are pants. The main problems being:

Lack of depth at 15 -- Brown is 30 now and is already a slow international player. By the Japan World Cup he will be 34 and into Cueto-levels of slowness. Only Goode is a full-time fullback at club and he's repeatedly shown he lacks the athleticism to be an international 15.

Wingers -- only Watson and Nowell have consistently shown international class. We've seen flashes of it from Yarde, May, and Rokoduguni, but otherwise we're one injury away from putting in a rookie/liability. Nowell's lack of pace combines badly with Brown's.



Again, two issues here:

1. The last time a team won the Grand Slam and went to Australia (Wales 2012) they got whitewashed by a weaker Wallaby side. Beating the NH does nothing more than get 4th in the world rankings. That's more likely to become 5th, thanks to Argentina, than 3rd, 2nd, or 1st.

2. Just because we have a young, inexperienced team doesn't guarantee progress. Lancaster's team peaked mid-2014. After that Twelvetrees, Burrell, Farrell, Yarde, Cole, Lawes, Care, and goodness knows how many others all got steadily worse. The difference between the play in NZ in 2014 and the RWC is staggering at times.

---

Long story short, we're a long way off being truly good and having proper depth (i.e. several, proven options) across the squad. If we rest on laurels after one Grand Slam we'll become Wales 2.0.

I agree that we cannot rest on our laurels and we still have a great distance to go, but there are certainly the blocks there to build a really good team, very competitive team. Lancaster was never going to be the man for the job, especially with Farrell running the show from behind the scenes.

Roko and May both have some really good qualities but with injury Roko hasn't had the chance to show what he can do and May was looking pretty sharp for England before his injury. Then there's Wade who has never been given a shot, so I would say we are doing ok for wings.

And to counter he Wales thing. They were in the ascendancy for some time building up to their slam with a solid team who has been playing together for ages. England did it off the back of a disastrous World Cup, with a brand new team in charge, and a totally new attitude to playing the game with players out of position or new to test level rugby.

A turn around that sharp is a bloody good start. Let's not forget the state Aus were in before Cheika came along, and now they are 2nd in the world.

England have the talent, and now we seem to have the coaching team to turn that talent into wins.

And for all the neigh Sayers I still think we are in with a chance of taking this series, which I would never have said 2 years ago. At the very least we should be running them pretty close .

 

[spartan32]

I'm really surprised that the papers are putting Teo at 12 ahead of Burrell, in fact I'm surprised he's in the squad at all. Does anyone have the inside track on this guy? I've watched a couple of highlight reels and saw. I thing that got me particularly excited. Most of it was from the NRL, and he appeared to do the same thing Burgess did, and we all know how that worked out. I'm holding faith with EJ but please, someone must have some evidence that supports his selection and promotion to the starting 15?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Haskell is meh and will struggle against Pooper.

To put it lightly!
Itoje will help but we're still going to get absolutely rinsed at the breakdown.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I'm really surprised that the papers are putting Teo at 12 ahead of Burrell, in fact I'm surprised he's in the squad at all. Does anyone have the inside track on this guy? I've watched a couple of highlight reels and saw. I thing that got me particularly excited. Most of it was from the NRL, and he appeared to do the same thing Burgess did, and we all know how that worked out. I'm holding faith with EJ but please, someone must have some evidence that supports his selection and promotion to the starting 15?

I really wish people wouldn't compare Burgess and T'eo in union, T'eo to his credit has proved himself capable of being a starter in club rugby. International is TBC.

 

[Peat]

I'd give us a chance too. Just not an odds-on one, and it'll involve even more growth from the team.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I really wish people wouldn't compare Burgess and T'eo in union, T'eo to his credit has proved himself capable of being a starter in club rugby. International is TBC.

I think comparisons are entirely justified if I'm honest. Both are league forwards who converted to union at the same time as 12s. Both were fast tracked into the England squad, and yes I do think Te'o was fast tracked, and in both cases they were fast tracked in the place of Burrell (I know Burrrell is in the squad now, but only because of the Manu injury). The reason I say he's been fast tracked is that I really don't believe he's proven himself in union yet, and certainly hasn't done anything to suggest he's worthy of an international call up. I think Burrell far more deserving of the squad place to begin with, and I'd also argue that taking 5 centres anyway is far too many if it means only taking 2 9s (Especially if those 2 9s are Youngs and Care, where's Robson?).

Te'o shouldn't have been given that spot until at least playing some rugby in England and showing that in the prem he can compete with other centres. From what I've seen of Te'o I think it's fair to say that Hill is on par with him in union and has actually played is rugby in England.

 

[Peat]

Toby, you do know that Te'o has spent his last two years playing centre for Leinster and that he's been one of their better players, right?