Australia vs England - 3 Tests - June 2016

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Toby, you do know that Te'o has spent his last two years playing centre for Leinster and that he's been one of their better players, right?

I saw that earlier in the season Fitzgerald was getting the nod over him at 12. I'm not denying that he's a fine union player but putting him into the England squad before he's played any rugby in England just seems wrong to me. I'd understand it if in union he had been spectacular, but just being one of Leinster's better players doesn't justify his selection to me. The European Cup showed us this year that being one of Leinster's better players this season doesn't mean a huge amount when put up against English clubs.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I saw that earlier in the season Fitzgerald was getting the nod over him at 12. I'm not denying that he's a fine union player but putting him into the England squad before he's played any rugby in England just seems wrong to me. I'd understand it if in union he had been spectacular, but just being one of Leinster's better players doesn't justify his selection to me.

Maybe but it ends all comparisons to Burgess.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Every team has weaknesses, it's not ridiculous to suggest we have a lot, and we're going away to play a better team. All of the issues are relevant and could add up to big problems if some, many or all are not sorted or mitigated.

Youngs ... he's an enigma isn't he. I tend to agree with those saying his occasional highlight reel break masks his consistent poor passing. He puts other players under pressure who then make mistakes, in which case it tends to be the other player that gets noticed. See Ford's charge down against Wales.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Maybe but it ends all comparisons to Burgess.

Not if it shows that Te'o's also been fast tracked. I am probably attacking Te'o a bit too much, but his selection just doesn't seem right to me. IMO it's undeniably Burgessesque.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Haven't seen Te'o play even once, but the Burgess comparison is self-evidently false. He's been playing 12 for one thing

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Haven't seen Te'o play even once, but the Burgess comparison is self-evidently false. He's been playing 12 for one thing

All of Burgess's England caps were at 12 and the majority of his Bath career was too. I agree that he was far better as a 6, but when you actually look at his union career as a whole, he was a 12.

 

[Raggs]

Burgess got 1 start at 12 for Bath I believe. He mostly started at 13 outside Eastmond.

He wasn't that awful to be honest for England, but the balance was awful, and he shouldn't have been rushed in so quick.

But let's be honest, Burrell is hardly the best 12 in the world.

 

[Peat]

I saw that earlier in the season Fitzgerald was getting the nod over him at 12. I'm not denying that he's a fine union player but putting him into the England squad before he's played any rugby in England just seems wrong to me. I'd understand it if in union he had been spectacular, but just being one of Leinster's better players doesn't justify his selection to me.

A fine union player is more than can be said for Burgess though and that is why the comparison should not be made.

edit: I rather believe Raggs is correct on how little time Burgess spent at 12 for Bath.

Te'o is being fast tracked into the England squad because of what he has done in rugby union.

Burgess was fast tracked into the England squad because of what he had done in rugby league.

The last two words in those sentences are the key ones.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Burgess got 1 start at 12 for Bath I believe. He mostly started at 13 outside Eastmond.

He wasn't that awful to be honest for England, but the balance was awful, and he shouldn't have been rushed in so quick.

But let's be honest, Burrell is hardly the best 12 in the world.

This is my issue with Te'o. He's only played a season of union more than Burgess did and has never played in England. In my eyes, that is being rushed in too quick.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Well those of us watching him week in week out at Bath, including Mike Ford[\b], we're all saying he was much better at 6 and that was his future before Lancaster picked him there. Ford said from the very beginning he saw him as a back row, and only played him at 12 as an easier place to learn the basics of the game. At the point where he was picked by Lancaster as a 12 there was no doubt he was a 6 at his club - which had always been the plan.

 

[Every Time Ref]

This is my issue with Te'o. He's only played a season of union more than Burgess did and has never played in England. In my eyes, that is being rushed in too quick.

One season more = 3 times as much

 

[MrTea_32]

Burgess got 1 start at 12 for Bath I believe. He mostly started at 13 outside Eastmond.

He wasn't that awful to be honest for England, but the balance was awful, and he shouldn't have been rushed in so quick.

But let's be honest, Burrell is hardly the best 12 in the world.

Burrell shouldn't be near the squad he's not good enough and has had his chances.
Burgess was here less than one year and he's meant to be learning the game but was swapped between 3 different positions.
It's a shame he went back as under Ej's England reign I think he would have fitted right in and been a success

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Well those of us watching him week in week out at Bath, including Mike Ford[\b], we're all saying he was much better at 6 and that was his future before Lancaster picked him there. Ford said from the very beginning he saw him as a back row, and only played him at 12 as an easier place to learn the basics of the game. At the point where he was picked by Lancaster as a 12 there was no doubt he was a 6 at his club - which had always been the plan.

I know that his future at Bath was seen as being in the back row, but he left before he got to that future. The majority of his games in union and his caps for England were at centre. To me, that makes him a centre.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

T'eo has played 2843 minutes of Union since his swap
Burgess played 1094 minutes of union before his first cap

In fact this season
T'eo played 1892 minutes starting 25 games

 

[spartan32]

So what I can take from the Teo chat is that there is no real evidence that anyone can provide that means he has earned a spot in the squad. As far as I can see this is a huge leap of faith by EJ based on what someone might be able to do given the chance. Sounds a whole lot like Burgess to me. So he's got a bit more time in Union under his belt, but until recently I'd never heard of the guy, so he hasn't exactly been setting the world on fire.

Oh well, I guess all we can hope is that EJ sees something we don't and that translates on the pitch.

 

[Raggs]

He's earned it by being potentially the best 12 we have on offer. Yes, it's a bit dire that this is the case, but Burrell, Devoto, Hill etc etc have not earned it either.

 

[Peat]

So what I can take from the Teo chat is that there is no real evidence that anyone can provide that means he has earned a spot in the squad. As far as I can see this is a huge leap of faith by EJ based on what someone might be able to do given the chance. Sounds a whole lot like Burgess to me. So he's got a bit more time in Union under his belt, but until recently I'd never heard of the guy, so he hasn't exactly been setting the world on fire.

Oh well, I guess all we can hope is that EJ sees something we don't and that translates on the pitch.

Sorry, but that's your ignorance, not his performance levels. Anyone who was paying the slightest bit of attention to Leinster last season saw that he was one of the best EQ centres around when it came to a direct physical style.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

So what I can take from the Teo chat is that there is no real evidence that anyone can provide that means he has earned a spot in the squad. As far as I can see this is a huge leap of faith by EJ based on what someone might be able to do given the chance. Sounds a whole lot like Burgess to me. So he's got a bit more time in Union under his belt, but until recently I'd never heard of the guy, so he hasn't exactly been setting the world on fire.

Oh well, I guess all we can hope is that EJ sees something we don't and that translates on the pitch.

What are you on about he has prob outpeformed any other English 12 last season.

 

[Which Tyler]

1. The majority of his games in union and his caps for England were at centre.
2.To me, that makes him a centre.

1. Isn't true
2. To me, that makes Stuart Lancaster a bad selector.


As for Te'o - we have 2 years of evidence that he's good at playing rugby union; and that he's good at playing inside centre.
For Burgess (as of his England debut) we had about 15 games of evidence that he wasn't very good at playing rugby union; and about 6 that he was mediocre at playing centre.
These things are not the same.

Te'O has played 2843 minutes of rugby for Leinster - apparently, nowhere near enough (for those who've only seen a highlights real of him playing a different sport)
Itoje has played 3055 minutes of rugby for Saracens - apparently enough to call him world class


Equally; a team playing poorly =/= all it's players are poor; a team playing well =/= all it's players are good.

Some here seem to think that is any discussion of 2 players the only answer needed is to see which team finished higher up the table. This is pure silliness.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

He's earned it by being potentially the best 12 we have on offer. Yes, it's a bit dire that this is the case, but Burrell, Devoto, Hill etc etc have not earned it either.

Burrell was our best back against Wales (a case could be made for Watson). He's hungry for an England spot and I think if given it now will really rise to the challenge. As for Hill and Devoto, I agree that neither are ready yet