England future management?

Discussion in 'International Test Matches' started by Tigs Man, Oct 4, 2015.

  1. Tigs Man

    Tigs Man Senior Member

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    Who would people keep and who do people want to walk?

    How high does reform go?

    How low does reform go?

    Looking back @ 2011

    I wonder if Mallet and Smith would want to work in tandem again?

    http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2011/nov/28/nick-mallett-wayne-smith-england

    Mallet would want Andrew gone which would be a big tick for me.

    Head backs coach - Smith
    Head Forwards Coach - Mallett

    Build around them?

    Thoughts?
     
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  3. ratsapprentice

    ratsapprentice Senior Member

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    First off - I would be extremely nervous about plucking the best coaching staff from the premiership, given that; A) there isn't one outstanding candidate (rather, a number of them, and none with anything to really shout about), and B ) It would be detrimental to the quality of our domestic system.

    Secondly - whoever we have, we cannot ever be in the situation we have found ourselves in where the defence coach is the most senior voice.

    Thirdly - I would be devastated if Lancaster is not retained in some capacity - his strengths are too strong to cast aside.

    People who I would be very receptive about:

    Eddie Jones
    Dave Rennie
    Wayne Smith
    Alex King



    Lastly, my dream scenario would be an RFU buyout of the Prem clubs.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2015
  4. Wendigo7

    Wendigo7 Senior Member

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  5. Tigs Man

    Tigs Man Senior Member

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    I like Henry but he is nearly 70.

    Would be happy with Mallett and smith.

    With Mallett focusing on forwards and smith backs.

    Mallett is also aggressive enough to handle RFU and get Andrew out.

    Re Lancaster I agree but would he go down to Saxons or would the next head coach want him above him?
     
  6. ratsapprentice

    ratsapprentice Senior Member

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    Wouldn't want Lancaster to be "above" someone like Jones, opining on purely rugby matters... just there as a director of sorts, ensuring we have guys coming through U16/18/20's successfully and that whoever is coaching doesn't try to select foreign based players.
    The trouble is, I think you'd have just as much trouble getting Lancaster to put away his whistle and tracksuit as you would getting the likes of Jones/Smith etc. to be subservient to him (not that I'm suggesting that anyway).
    I'm thinking of a role which is somewhat an amalgam of what Andrew and Lydon do.

    Wouldn't be unhappy about Mallet... I just don't know that he would be my number 1.
    I do like him a lot though.

    Jamie Joseph?
    Shaun Edwards?
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2015
  7. j'nuh

    j'nuh Senior Member

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    I think we need fresh ideas in the forwards coaching. Rowntree retired in 2007 and was an England coach by 2008. Neither Johnson nor Lancaster had the expertise to provide support to Rowntree, so it means that most of Rowntree's support came from Ford between 2008 and 2011, when Ford was the main forwards coach.

    We either need a head coach with plenty of forwards coaching experience, or we need to replace Rowntree. I think that the lack of new ideas is part of the reason why our pack is plagued by the same problems for the last 7 or so years.

    I don't think Rowntree is a bad coach either. He's got the talent, he just hasn't had the education. I'd like to keep him if possible.
     
  8. ratsapprentice

    ratsapprentice Senior Member

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    Ford was the Defence coach - why would a RL halfback be a RU forwards coach?

    Why are you so keen to keep Wig?

    He's been an England forwards coach for 8 years - at no point in that time has he turned our pack into the zombie-nazi-baby-sodomizing-plaguebearers people seem to imagine he has.
    He's a decent coach, but you don't keep someone in charge for 8 years just because they're "decent".

    The same goes for Andrew (doubly so, as he's a snake).
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2015
  9. FrenchFan

    FrenchFan Senior Member

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    Philippe Saint-André
     
  10. TRF_nickdnz

    TRF_nickdnz Super Moderator

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    I think the first question you have to ask is:

    Who is going to be the head coach?

    In my opinion the best candidates out there at the moments (that are still actively coaching so not Graham Henry...):

    Eddie Jones: Has achieved good results with every team international side he has been with.
    Wayne Smith: Has a very, very good knowledge of defense and backplay. Unlikely he'd leave New Zealand though.
    Dave Rennie: If they could get him it would be an amazing steel. In my view the best Super Rugby coach in New Zealand.
    Robbie Deans: People are writing him off are ridiculous. Most successful coach in Super Rugby wasn't by accident - and he developed many world class players. Had problems with Australia - but so did the next coach...
    Jake White: Still seems to have international ambitions - has improved every team he has been with. Doesn't promote the most exciting rugby ever...but England probably can live with that.

    I'm not sure why Mallett keeps getting mentioned for every international job - has he really demonstrated he is an outstanding international coach?

    I don't understand calls for any of the current coaching staff being kept around the England setup in any capacity. I certainly don't think creating roles for ex-coaches and players is a worthwhile use of resources - if anything I think it just limits the impact of a national coach from doing their job well. On Stuart Lancaster: the guy is 44 years old. He could coach for another 20 years - why not send him out to the domestic leagues and make him actually achieve something with a club - and then be offered the gig again? Surely that is the best way to use him? Not creating an English version of Scott Johnson (if Rob Andrew isn't already filling that role...). If his merit is that he develops players well, surely doing that with a club would feed back into the England setup anyway?

    The most important thing for me is whoever head coach is: he gets complete autonomy. Instead of trying to improve the England squad by committee - I would like to see the RFU pick the most qualified international candidate interested in the position - and then back him entirely with his choice of personal. That way you at least get a a coach who has picked the people he believes are best able to support his vision.

    I think England are far too guilty of job for the boys in an international setup: does it not strike anyone else as interesting that the forwards coach, skills coach and defense coach all played for England together, less than a decade ago? Not a single coach within the England setup has a full decade of experience as a coach (and the only one with any club experience as a head coach was Stuart Lancaster - and that was at Leeds!!!!). It's not quite as blindingly obvious as chucking Martin Johnson as head coach with no experience, but it's not exactly a huge endorsement either. As much as people are having a go at Mike Catt - he was only coaching for two years before being picked up as skills coach...it is madness.

    With that said I now fully expect Johnny Wilkinson to be given the head coaching job at England, Stuart Lancaster to become Depute Director of Elite Performance, Farrell to be moved to backs coach, Rowntree to take over at the Saxons, and Mike Catt to be arbitrarily deemed a coaching failure and give motivational speeches at RFU functions.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2015
  11. Tigs Man

    Tigs Man Senior Member

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    In perfect world it would be between Rennie and Smith.

    Considering SCW is bookies favorite I'm scared.

    Although you could get very good odds on Smith and Rennie.
     
  12. j'nuh

    j'nuh Senior Member

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    My mistake, but that actually helps my argument more than hinders it. In that case, he was elevated to England forwards coach within a year of retirement and has had absolutely no outside ideas since then.

    On his own, no, I don't think Rowntree will create a terrifying pack. But I think with a head coach with a better vision for the forwards, and who is comfortable with taking forwards sessions, particularly guiding us to be better at the breakdown, I think Rowntree can continue to be an asset for England. And over time, he'll fill in his own gaps in his coaching education.
     
  13. ratsapprentice

    ratsapprentice Senior Member

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    I think you'd be surprised... I'm really not keen on White.

    I don't think people are endorsing the idea of Lancaster staying on in a rugby role - but in an administrative/PR one, where he has been very good in a lot of people's minds.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Based on what?

    He's been in the role for 8 ****ing years!

    EIGHT.YEARS.
     
  14. Tigs Man

    Tigs Man Senior Member

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    White is a no no for me.
     
  15. j'nuh

    j'nuh Senior Member

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    It's like studying to be a teacher. You'll know how to teach your own subject because you studied it to degree level, but if you want to teach anything else, you're going to need to put your own study into it before teaching a class of others.

    Rowntree can have 30 years in the role and still not be any closer to being a better coach because he has had very little guidance on certain facets of the game that he is then expected to teach. Most of his knowledge of the game comes from when he was a player. Rowntree knows what a front row needs to do from his playing days because he himself was a front rower, but he cannot put an adequate backrow together because no one has taught him how. It's no coincidence that looser forwards play, the breakdown, the carrying game, timing at the ruck, have all struggled under Rowntree, whereas the tighter elements are pretty decent in general.

    What we need is someone who can work in tandem with Rowntree to fill those gaps in. Initially, Rowntree will study these new methods whilst continuing to coach scrum, lineout and tight forwards play. In the long-term, Rowntree will pick up the skills and teach them himself.

    Ditching him is a legitimate option, but I feel there's a very clear strategy for improving the forwards coaching by keeping him in charge and working around his limitations for now. Dropping him for the unknown is risky.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2015
  16. Tigs Man

    Tigs Man Senior Member

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    Rowntree would be better off going to super rugby as a forwards coach somewhere.

    Pick up some of there forwards ideas and look to infuse that with England traditional forwards play IMO.
     
  17. Wendigo7

    Wendigo7 Senior Member

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    The interview this morning was about Wayne Smith being looked at for the job with Rob Baxter as his understudy.

    Same as Eddie Jones.
     
  18. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

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    Didn't Jones only sign for the Stormers like a week ago?
     
  19. ratsapprentice

    ratsapprentice Senior Member

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    What interview?
     
  20. Aristodemus

    Aristodemus Senior Member

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    I would be very excited by Smith or Rennie,I really don't see it happening though. At this point I would just be happy to see Lancaster and Farrell go.
     
  21. TheOvalBall

    TheOvalBall Senior Member

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    Wayne Smith would be a good choice.
     
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