England Post-WC discussion

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j'nuh

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I agree the stats show an incomplete picture, but my point was that if Morgan was playing well, he should show up in some of them, unless he does all the unseen work, which isn´t what I want from a no.8 anyway. All the other no.8s people think are good no.8s showed up in the stats, apart from Faletau (perhaps he didn´t start enough games?), so it seems a bit odd that they agree with what people think in all the other cases, but not in Morgan´s - there could be a good reason for it, like Morgan had a difficult season in a struggling team (although Hogg made the tackle stats with Newcastle) or it could just be that he isn´t as good as people think he is.

My comments on Morgan´s work rate are only partly based on the stats, they are mainly from watching him play - next time he does, count how many times he carries the ball in open play, which I would say is the main job of a no.8.
Well:
1. Vunipola does have a couple of stone on Morgan. It's fairly obvious that he is a physically stronger carrier than Morgan. He's also physically stronger and harder to put down than Parisse, but few would say he's better than Parisse.
2. Gloucester play ball-carrying 6s. (Kalamafoni and Moriarty are both as comfortable at 8 as 6.) Saracens don't. Therefore, Saracens will naturally give the ball to Vunipola more than Gloucester give it to Morgan.

As for tackles, Saracens are fairly known to play a territory-based game. They make an above average number of tackles for a Premiership team because they generally play with low possession, so I expect Vunipola will have more tackles per game than Morgan. What I'd be interested to know is what percentage of the tackles made by their team's forwards does each 8 make whilst they are on the field.

I'm fairly sure that when I last looked, Morgan was the second top tackler in Gloucester after Kvesic.
 
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goodNumber10

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So why is Morgan nowhere in the stats in Feb? He should be close shouldnt he, even with fact that he can actually score from distance, unlike Morgan.
Why isn´t he there in the tackle stats if Gloucester were having such a hard time, like Hogg at Newcastle?
No idea, maybe because it's across all competitions and looking at a minimum of 8 starts, not over 8 starts so stats are misleading. Like i said that article is confusing, morgan may be just outside of those 10.

It's difficult to tell without knowing the exact criteria they used.


And I predict that Morgan won´t be in the squad today, unless Lancaster does something really daft like put Easter in as an extra second row.

that would hardly be a revelation, he's been injured for 6 months and only played 40 minutes of rugby.
 

msf

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That wouldn´t explain anything, because it´s based on metres gained and tackles made per game.

I know, I don´t believe in revelations that are not backed by any evidence, such as Marler is one of England´s best ball carriers...
 

goodNumber10

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That wouldn´t explain anything, because it´s based on metres gained and tackles made per game.
It would, but anyway....

I know, I don´t believe in revelations that are not backed by any evidence, such as Marler is one of England´s best ball carriers...
what makes you say he's not?

Are you going to quote more stats you don't understand?
 

msf

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The evidence of the stats and my own eyes. People asked me to justify my comments on Hughes, and I presented stats to justify them, now it´s your turn...
 

goodNumber10

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The evidence of the stats and my own eyes. People asked me to justify my comments on Hughes, and I presented stats to justify them, now it´s your turn...
na, i'm alright mate, there is more to rugby than meters made stats.
 

msf

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Haha, you aren´t kidding anyone, you know.
 
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Tigs Man

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Morgan has proved himself at international rugby already and doesn't need justifying in selection anyway.
 

TRF_Olyy

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So why is Morgan nowhere in the stats in Feb?
Probably because he was lying at home with his leg in a cast?
 

goodNumber10

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Probably because he was lying at home with his leg in a cast?
maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate! You can't dismiss the stats with something as simple as common sense.

 
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j'nuh

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The evidence of the stats and my own eyes. People asked me to justify my comments on Hughes, and I presented stats to justify them, now it´s your turn...
What evidence of the stats?

The sample size is absolutely tiny and there are literally thousands of assumptions that you have to make in order to compare two players. Seriously, you are hideously misunderstanding what statistics can and cannot tell you in this instance.
 

Tigs Man

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Hell yeah man!

*hi-five*
 

msf

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The stats are per game, as has already been established. Morgan would have played almost as many games as all the rest. I used the only stats available to me to show that Hughes and Vunipola are up there with the best in Europe, and Morgan isn´t, based on the first half of last season when they were all fit. I could just say that Lancaster will have all the stats at his disposal, like good no. 10 always does, but I think Lancaster often pays too much importance to the wrong stats, for example in the case of Robshaw, where he should be looking at turnovers made rather than just being impressed by number of tackles made and rucks attended. And before you say what I know you are going to say, Hughes made the most turnovers in the Premiership last year.
 

goodNumber10

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who cares Morgan is in.


LOL!!!
 

msf

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Who cares? People who want England to do well?
 

Tigs Man

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But clearly you are one of those supporters who only like show ponies.
 
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