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[RWC2019][3rd & 4th Place Playoff] New Zealand vs. Wales (01/11/2019)

Ferrari333SP

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Wonder if you could argue that's an even stronger team than faced England - at least they have more caps than that team
 

Cooper

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Wonder if you could argue that's an even stronger team than faced England - at least they have more caps than that team

You're not wrong, Ben Smith should 100% have at least been on the bench vs England. Goodhue played well, but we all know Crotty should've realistically been there in such a monumental game.


Team Announced

1. Joe Moody (44)
2. Dane Coles (68)
3. Nepo Laulala (24)
4. Brodie Retallick (80)
5. Scott Barrett (35)
6. Shannon Frizell (8)
7. Sam Cane (67)
8. Kieran Read - captain (126)
9. Aaron Smith (91)
10. Richie Mo’unga (16)
11. Rieko Ioane (28)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (56)
13. Ryan Crotty (47)
14. Ben Smith (83)
15. Beauden Barrett (82)


16. Liam Coltman (7)
17. Atu Moli (7)
18. Angus Ta'avao (13)
19. Patrick Tuipulotu (29)
20. Matt Todd (24)
21. Brad Weber (4)
22. Anton Lienert-Brown (41)
23. Jordie Barrett (16)

strong but i think people like weber could have got a start without fielding a B team and for the love of god couldn't Smith have started at 15 for his last game

Ben Smith at wing. That selection sums up Hansen's last 2 years for me. I'm definitely sad for how Ben Smith was treated this season, I feel it's almost disrespectful playing him on the wing in his final game, maybe he has a better chance there of scoring a try in his final test though.

Notable dropping: Sam Whitelock.

I thought Sam Whitelock was one of the players that really let us down against England, usually leading by example, but he put in his worst performance in an All Black jersey in on Saturday (heck, most of the team did), but he in particular cost us dearly at crucial parts of the game. I think Hansen will be feeling pretty let down and wouldn't be surprised if that's the reasoning for his non-selection, there may have been some words directed at him from Hansen & Foster after the game. I would've given him the hair blower treatment.

But overall it's really strong team, sad to see some old heads go, another end of an era. Read, Crotty, Smith, SBW have been awesome. In the end only 1 of them was playing in the starting XV and that could've been one of the problems.

I was critical of Hansen in the England thread about how the team has ended up at the end of his tenure, so I'm keen to say some positive things (even though he will never read this lol, it's still nice to express it to other fans of rugby);

It's been a pretty great decade under his stewardship for the most part. He's implemented a positive, professional, respectful culture in the team and tried his hardest to nurture young talent and support their confidence and development. He finishes with a 86.5% winning record and another RWC under the belt, which is nothing short of brilliant and we've been spoiled. So cheers Steve for the memories!
 

Kapa O Pango

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Team Announced

1. Joe Moody (44)
2. Dane Coles (68)
3. Nepo Laulala (24)
4. Brodie Retallick (80)
5. Scott Barrett (35)
6. Shannon Frizell (8)
7. Sam Cane (67)
8. Kieran Read - captain (126)
9. Aaron Smith (91)
10. Richie Mo’unga (16)
11. Rieko Ioane (28)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (56)
13. Ryan Crotty (47)
14. Ben Smith (83)
15. Beauden Barrett (82)


16. Liam Coltman (7)
17. Atu Moli (7)
18. Angus Ta'avao (13)
19. Patrick Tuipulotu (29)
20. Matt Todd (24)
21. Brad Weber (4)
22. Anton Lienert-Brown (41)
23. Jordie Barrett (16)

strong but i think people like weber could have got a start without fielding a B team and for the love of god couldn't Smith have started at 15 for his last game

Hard to believe Bender and Crotty didn't start or was on the bench 23 for any of the knockout games.

Good send off for the guys leaving.
 

Goodey

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That NZ team, with the exception of missing Savea, is as good as or better than the semi final side and I expect them to belt a quite depleted Wales.

Will be supporting Wales no doubt. An unlikely match winning performance by the likes of Adams, Lane and Amos would make this an amazing start to a new era rather than the end of this one.
 

Bluemoon

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Yeah, this Wales selection further highlights to me how a lot of the welsh boys were carrying injuries or were overplayed at some level. This team selection is similar to that which had a tough game against Ireland away, so it could be a long day at the office.

Wales always struggle with this level of rotation and it would have been a tough game with the first team. The only positive is it’s a decent experience for some of the younger players.
 

Bruce_ma_goose

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As someone posted above, it'd be funny if Gatland bowed out with Wales beating the ABs with attractive rugby. I like the 10/12 combo, which could in theory bring that. Plus, no Halfpenny :)

But these combinations have never played together and the forwards may not give them a platform. Again, not a whole lot to be feared in the ABs here in my opinion, unless the real Reiko turns up.

Purely based on continuity of selection:

ABs by 21
 

Not Eddie Jones

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My point was not that you can’t be defensively strong while also having a stylish and effective attack... my point is simply Wales were a shambles for a long time. Under a Gatland we aren’t a Shambles... pragmatic, yes; overly structured, yes; negative, yes... clown shoes, thankfully no.

He has done this despite having to work with the products of our regional game which is an absolute mess. He has done this despite the constant in-fighting between the regions and the WRU... and amazingly he has been able to operate within the Welsh goldfish bowl of public scrutiny for over a decade without ever really becoming a pariah.

As I said in my original post, I would love nothing more than for Wales to move on post Gats and be successful while playing a attractive brand of rugby but I’m just all too aware of the realities at play here (think Vern’s Scotland and then Toonie’s Scotland but on a wider scale). I hope I’m wrong and will be the first to admit if I am.

The main message I wanted to convey though is it seems many younger Welsh fans have very little frame of context when judging Gatland’s reign here in Wales. The grass isn’t always greener and losing consistently but with style is nowhere near as fun as winning ugly. Gatland should receive many plaudits for the hard and effective work he has put in these last eleven years, not disdain from kids who have only ever known a side competing for honours during his run as Head Coach.

Sorry, I do get your point, I just didn't make my counterpoint very well. What I was trying to say (and making a right pig's ear of it!) is that I don't think Gatland has overachieved with Wales, I think he's underachieved. Had he added more strings to Wales' bow, ie a decent attack, they could have won that QF against Oz, that SF against the Boks, more 6 nations titles etc. They've had some fine players in his reign and yet I don't feel he's ever really got the best out of them because he has been so limited as a coach. He's had 12 years to develop the team, to progress them, to improve them, but they've been totally static. And I feel that it's the Welsh fans and pundits being grateful for whatever they can get because pre-Gatland there were some lean times that seems to have allowed him to get away with underachieving with Wales for so long.

Or, in other words, I'm with those disdainful kids. :p Wales should be better for Gatland's departure, not worse.
 

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Wales: Hallam Amos; Owen Lane, Jonathan Davies, Owen Watkin, Josh Adams; Rhys Patchell, Tomos Williams; Nicky Smith, Ken Owens, Dillon Lewis; Adam Beard, Alun Wyn Jones (capt); Justin Tipuric, James Davies, Ross Moriarty.

Replacements: Elliot Dee, Rhys Carre, Wyn Jones, Jake Ball, Aaron Shingler, Gareth Davies, Dan Biggar, Hadleigh Parkes



For anyone wondering :p
 

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To be honest the only thing that MATTER
Well you can speak for yourself on this one.

I actually really dislike this attitude towards the 3rd & 4th play-off game. It often stinks of sour grapes and a sore loser mentality. It gives both teams a good opportunity to finish the season on a high. I remember this attitude in New Zealand towards this game came about after the disappointment in 1999 after losing to France and Taine Randall and John Hart made similar comments towards the game. Yes it's the losers final, yes we would rather be in the final, but it's still an opportunity to beat another good team and finish higher in the pecking order.

I care for the game, I don't want to finish 4th or lose to Wales, I'm sure the team feels the same way. I think it's good to establish who the 3rd best side was and 4th best in the touranment and the game should remain.

I for one am looking forward to the game and relish the chance of watching the All Blacks one more time this year and before some of our greats retire and I want to see them go out on a win.


I don't care much for the 3rd place
Well you can speak for yourself on this one.

I actually really dislike this attitude towards the 3rd & 4th play-off game. It often stinks of sour grapes and a sore loser mentality. It gives both teams a good opportunity to finish the season on a high. I remember this attitude in New Zealand towards this game came about after the disappointment in 1999 after losing to France and Taine Randall and John Hart made similar comments towards the game. Yes it's the losers final, yes we would rather be in the final, but it's still an opportunity to beat another good team and finish higher in the pecking order.

I care for the game, I don't want to finish 4th or lose to Wales, I'm sure the team feels the same way. I think it's good to establish who the 3rd best side was and 4th best in the touranment and the game should remain.

I for one am looking forward to the game and relish the chance of watching the All Blacks one more time this year and before some of our greats retire and I want to see them go out on a win.

Sorry I don't agree , the only thing that matters is WINNING nobody remembers who finished 3rd in a tournament, sure if this was track and field then a bronze is good but in a tournament set up whether that's rugby, football or even cricket nobody cares who finished third and nobody remembers , it's a nothing game in a tournament set up..
 

ThebigARena

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I think gatland has done the right thing to give the young lads a run and treat the game like the exhibition it is. Can't see anything but an all black white wash here , Wales need big match intensity to perform and that will be devoid here so this game will come down to base skills and NZ are leagues in front on that . NZ by 20 plus
 

The Alpha Bro

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I think a plate is unfeasible and really stupid when given a moment's thought, it'd have to be done as an opt in sort of thing because many unions wouldn't want to pay or couldn't pay the extra money to stay in the country, no T1 nations would be bothered to enter and it'd be an extra hosting cost that is not going to be attractive to fans in the host nation.

As for this game, seen as the discussion has gotten there, I think this is the first time I'm actually going to watch it and that's purely because NZ are playing and I like their style this year. I see nothing wrong with following boxing in the Olympics approach of giving both losing semi finalists 3rd place. (not that third means anything outside Olympic sports) Forcing Wales to play this game on a five day turnaround is borderline negligent from world rugby in my opinion, there's going to be a lot of broken bodies who need a rest rather than a test match.
 

Cooper

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To be honest the only thing that MATTER



I don't care much for the 3rd place


Sorry I don't agree , the only thing that matters is WINNING nobody remembers who finished 3rd in a tournament, sure if this was track and field then a bronze is good but in a tournament set up whether that's rugby, football or even cricket nobody cares who finished third and nobody remembers , it's a nothing game in a tournament set up..


The irony with these "if you're not 1st you're last" attitudes and approaching a game "not caring" is in fact that it's a losing mentality. Usually it's mainly the arm chair fan or people who haven't experienced competing at a serious level that undervalue these games and criticize the participants.

For the players and coaching staff, it's another opportunity to put on the All Black jersey and go out and play for their country in order to gain a better ranking in the tournament. People can say it doesn't matter if you're 3rd or 4th and "nobody cares", but that's not true, only to the people with the wrong mentality in my opinion. I care and I can name from the top off my head, most 3rd place finishes at a RWC, sometimes it's fascinating to see a team like Argentina finish 3rd.

What matters is it's where we are now and doing the best you can for your country and yourselves. If that's not motivation enough, then you can improve your relationship with competition.

I repeat, I do NOT want to lose to Wales and I'm absolutely positive the team feel the exact same way.
 

Cooper

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I think a plate is unfeasible and really stupid when given a moment's thought, it'd have to be done as an opt in sort of thing because many unions wouldn't want to pay or couldn't pay the extra money to stay in the country, no T1 nations would be bothered to enter and it'd be an extra hosting cost that is not going to be attractive to fans in the host nation.

As for this game, seen as the discussion has gotten there, I think this is the first time I'm actually going to watch it and that's purely because NZ are playing and I like their style this year. I see nothing wrong with following boxing in the Olympics approach of giving both losing semi finalists 3rd place. (not that third means anything outside Olympic sports) Forcing Wales to play this game on a five day turnaround is borderline negligent from world rugby in my opinion, there's going to be a lot of broken bodies who need a rest rather than a test match.

That's knock-out footy for you, it's a test of character and depth, proper squad management and luck with injuries. The Welsh have been unlucky with injuries, sometimes it happens with a team, we were unlucky in 2011 with our first 5's, Ireland unlucky in 2015, but it's just another test to see if you have the character and depth to get results against adversity.
 

The Alpha Bro

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That's knock-out footy for you, it's a test of character and depth, proper squad management and luck with injuries. The Welsh have been unlucky with injuries, sometimes it happens with a team, we were unlucky in 2011 with our first 5's, Ireland unlucky in 2015, but it's just another test to see if you have the character and depth to get results against adversity.
Well yeah, but the obvious thing here is that they're knocked out, the season isn't even a quarter done for any of the players and it's the shortest turnaround any team have had to face since the pool stages, it's asking for more injuries.

If I was in the Welsh camp I'd be hoping not to play, is third place in anything worth risking a chance at winning a pro 14, Heineken Cup, 6 nations etc... No way.
 

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Well yeah, but the obvious thing here is that they're knocked out, the season isn't even a quarter done for any of the players and it's the shortest turnaround any team have had to face since the pool stages, it's asking for more injuries.

If I was in the Welsh camp I'd be hoping not to play, is third place in anything worth risking a chance at winning a pro 14, Heineken Cup, 6 nations etc... No way.

That's a tad dramatic. And it's unfortunate for the European players that it's the start of their season and the end of ours, but that'd be unfair on SH teams to scrap the game for that reason. It's only once every 4 years.

Also, I think a lot of them would absolutely want to play and beat the All Blacks, it's also another test in the Welsh jersey, I'm sure the players take immense pride in playing for their country. Agreed the turnaround could be better, I still believe the game should be on the Saturday, final on the Sunday or simply just have the game before the final as a curtain raiser. But World Rugby huh.
 

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Sorry, I do get your point, I just didn't make my counterpoint very well. What I was trying to say (and making a right pig's ear of it!) is that I don't think Gatland has overachieved with Wales, I think he's underachieved. Had he added more strings to Wales' bow, ie a decent attack, they could have won that QF against Oz, that SF against the Boks, more 6 nations titles etc. They've had some fine players in his reign and yet I don't feel he's ever really got the best out of them because he has been so limited as a coach. He's had 12 years to develop the team, to progress them, to improve them, but they've been totally static. And I feel that it's the Welsh fans and pundits being grateful for whatever they can get because pre-Gatland there were some lean times that seems to have allowed him to get away with underachieving with Wales for so long.

Or, in other words, I'm with those disdainful kids. :p Wales should be better for Gatland's departure, not worse.
We'll see, as a proud Welshman and rugby fan I hope you're right. My pessimism is founded on experience of the ****-show Welsh rugby was before Gatland. Maybe our house is in order now (maybe)... or maybe Gatland has been the glue that has stopped Welsh Rugby fragmenting into pieces these last 11 years. We shall soon find out.
 

The Alpha Bro

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That's a tad dramatic. And it's unfortunate for the European players that it's the start of their season and the end of ours, but that'd be unfair on SH teams to scrap the game for that reason. It's only once every 4 years.

Also, I think a lot of them would absolutely want to play and beat the All Blacks, it's also another test in the Welsh jersey, I'm sure the players take immense pride in playing for their country. Agreed the turnaround could be better, I still believe the game should be on the Saturday, final on the Sunday or simply just have the game before the final as a curtain raiser. But World Rugby huh.
Dramatic but not unrealistic! There's been a couple NH season enders already in this tournament.

Anyway, think it's time to agree to disagree. I'll have to wait until Ireland have to play in one of these to know where I truly stand though! Maybe after our valiant defence of the title falls short in 2027!
 

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